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Maria
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 Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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When considering the question of self-defence, as I understand it, one
is *not* allowed to use a knife for self-defence even if one happens
to have a lawful excuse for carrying it or it is 'legal' knife (i.e.a
pocket knife).
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
The area of weapons is tricky IMHO since it would be (AFAIK) unlawful
to use any object as a weapon, which rather undermines one's ability
to defend oneself against somone who is (unlawfully) armed... |
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Max Muir
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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On Jul 17, 4:16 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"Maria" <i...@tajarts.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0a0215b8-0867-45de-a2de-9fade7fa20b6@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
When considering the question of self-defence, as I understand it, one
is *not* allowed to use a knife for self-defence even if one happens
to have a lawful excuse for carrying it or it is 'legal' knife (i.e.a
pocket knife).
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
The area of weapons is tricky IMHO since it would be (AFAIK) unlawful
to use any object as a weapon, which rather undermines one's ability
to defend oneself against somone who is (unlawfully) armed...
You are allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself.
You are allowed to use anything you have to hand to do so.
|
What about a pointed stick?
| Quote: |
If you're carrying a knife (or a gun or anything else) you may use it to
defend yourself with.
Guns are even more complicated because it is unlawful to have a firearm
uncovered in a public place, but, as Tony Martin found out, they don't
prosecute you for reasonably trivial firearms offences if someone died.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea. |
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Max Muir
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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On Jul 17, 4:24 pm, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...@gmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
Max Muir wrote:
On Jul 17, 4:16 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
"Maria" <i...@tajarts.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0a0215b8-0867-45de-a2de-9fade7fa20b6@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com....
When considering the question of self-defence, as I understand it, one
is *not* allowed to use a knife for self-defence even if one happens
to have a lawful excuse for carrying it or it is 'legal' knife (i.e.a
pocket knife).
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
The area of weapons is tricky IMHO since it would be (AFAIK) unlawful
to use any object as a weapon, which rather undermines one's ability
to defend oneself against somone who is (unlawfully) armed...
You are allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself.
You are allowed to use anything you have to hand to do so.
What about a pointed stick?
Or a (broken) bottle, or a bunch of keys, or a walking stick, or
whatever is lying around nearby etc etc.
--
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/- Transcendence UK
Remote Viewing classes in London- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
|
Yes, that's what Lofty says in THE SAS SELF-DEFENCE HANDBOOK,
'Everyday items in self-defence'. P. 64 shows a pugnacious gaffer
brandishing a walking-stick. The cation reads 'A walking stick can
be a useful self-defence aid. Hold it like a quarter staff for jabs
and blocks. Do not start swinging it like a sword, as an attacker
might catch it and yank it away'.
But I was alluding to the Monty Python Self Defence classes sketch
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RKTSwAVaoU
Max |
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William Black
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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"Maria" <info@tajarts.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0a0215b8-0867-45de-a2de-9fade7fa20b6@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
When considering the question of self-defence, as I understand it, one
is *not* allowed to use a knife for self-defence even if one happens
to have a lawful excuse for carrying it or it is 'legal' knife (i.e.a
pocket knife).
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
The area of weapons is tricky IMHO since it would be (AFAIK) unlawful
to use any object as a weapon, which rather undermines one's ability
to defend oneself against somone who is (unlawfully) armed...
|
You are allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself.
You are allowed to use anything you have to hand to do so.
If you're carrying a knife (or a gun or anything else) you may use it to
defend yourself with.
Guns are even more complicated because it is unlawful to have a firearm
uncovered in a public place, but, as Tony Martin found out, they don't
prosecute you for reasonably trivial firearms offences if someone died.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea. |
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Marcus Fox
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:39 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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"Maria" <info@tajarts.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0a0215b8-0867-45de-a2de-9fade7fa20b6@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
When considering the question of self-defence, as I understand it, one
is *not* allowed to use a knife for self-defence even if one happens
to have a lawful excuse for carrying it or it is 'legal' knife (i.e.a
pocket knife).
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
The area of weapons is tricky IMHO since it would be (AFAIK) unlawful
to use any object as a weapon, which rather undermines one's ability
to defend oneself against somone who is (unlawfully) armed...
|
There was a shopkeeper a while back who ended up killing a knife wielding
thug who was trying to rob his shop. The weapon used was the knife that the
thug was threatening him with. Apparently there was a struggle and the
protagonist was fatally wounded. The shopkeeper was charged with murder.
Never knew what the outcome of the case was though.
Marcus
Marcus |
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Bert Hyman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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In
news:0a0215b8-0867-45de-a2de-9fade7fa20b6@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com
Maria <info@tajarts.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
...
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. ...
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
|
By the standard you name, only if you're no better a knife fighter than
your attacker. I guess it would also help if you could get him to state
in advance just how badly he intended to hurt you.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN bert@iphouse.com |
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Colin Wilson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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| Quote: |
There was a shopkeeper a while back who ended up killing a knife wielding
thug who was trying to rob his shop.
Never knew what the outcome of the case was though.
|
He was released without charge IIRC, it was on the BBC website, and I
remember commenting in uk.legal on the shopkeepers' comments about the
loss to his attackers' family as being peculiarly humanitarian given
the circumstances. |
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Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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Bert Hyman wrote:
| Quote: |
In
news:0a0215b8-0867-45de-a2de-9fade7fa20b6@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com
Maria <info@tajarts.co.uk> wrote:
...
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. ...
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
By the standard you name, only if you're no better a knife fighter than
your attacker. I guess it would also help if you could get him to state
in advance just how badly he intended to hurt you.
|
It might help, but is not necessary. It is your *reasonable* belief that
is taken into account. Anyone moving towards you with a knife might
legitimately be considered a lethal threat, depending on context.
--
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
Remote Viewing classes in London |
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Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:24 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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Max Muir wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 17, 4:16 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
"Maria" <i...@tajarts.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0a0215b8-0867-45de-a2de-9fade7fa20b6@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
When considering the question of self-defence, as I understand it, one
is *not* allowed to use a knife for self-defence even if one happens
to have a lawful excuse for carrying it or it is 'legal' knife (i.e.a
pocket knife).
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
The area of weapons is tricky IMHO since it would be (AFAIK) unlawful
to use any object as a weapon, which rather undermines one's ability
to defend oneself against somone who is (unlawfully) armed...
You are allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself.
You are allowed to use anything you have to hand to do so.
What about a pointed stick?
|
Or a (broken) bottle, or a bunch of keys, or a walking stick, or
whatever is lying around nearby etc etc.
--
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
Remote Viewing classes in London |
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Blue
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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Maria wrote:
| Quote: |
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
|
In reality, as with most court cases, the ones with the most cash wins. |
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Maria
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
|
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On Jul 18, 1:24 am, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...@gmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
Max Muir wrote:
On Jul 17, 4:16 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
"Maria" <i...@tajarts.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0a0215b8-0867-45de-a2de-9fade7fa20b6@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
When considering the question of self-defence, as I understand it, one
is *not* allowed to use a knife for self-defence even if one happens
to have a lawful excuse for carrying it or it is 'legal' knife (i.e.a
pocket knife).
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
The area of weapons is tricky IMHO since it would be (AFAIK) unlawful
to use any object as a weapon, which rather undermines one's ability
to defend oneself against somone who is (unlawfully) armed...
You are allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself.
You are allowed to use anything you have to hand to do so.
What about a pointed stick?
Or a (broken) bottle, or a bunch of keys, or a walking stick, or
whatever is lying around nearby etc etc.
|
But are you allowed to use anything useful you happen to have in your
pocket?
The situation seems different when you are in your home and someone
breaks in. In the street, do you really have to use only things that
may be lying around? |
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Maria
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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|
On Jul 18, 7:12 am, Richard Miller <rich...@seasalter0.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: |
In message
0a0215b8-0867-45de-a2de-9fade7fa2...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Maria <i...@tajarts.co.uk> writes
When considering the question of self-defence, as I understand it, one
is *not* allowed to use a knife for self-defence even if one happens
to have a lawful excuse for carrying it or it is 'legal' knife (i.e.a
pocket knife).
No, that is wrong. "Reasonable force" could easily extend to using a
knife, and it will be a jury made up of people like you who decide if it
was reasonable.
It is not considered to be a reasonable excuse for carrying a knife if
your *only* reason for having it is self-defence; but if the relevant
circumstances arose and you used it, that would not be unlawful.
|
So to be certain, you can use anything you happen to have in your
pocket or handbag as long as it is not an outlawed item such as CS
gas. I could spray perfume in someone's eyes for example?
| Quote: |
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
Correct.
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
I cannot conceive of any circumstance where a jury would consider that
to be unlawful - indeed, it is hard to imagine a case where it would get
as far as a jury.
The area of weapons is tricky IMHO since it would be (AFAIK) unlawful
to use any object as a weapon, which rather undermines one's ability
to defend oneself against somone who is (unlawfully) armed...
No, it is unlawful to carry certain objects purely for use as a weapon,
but if you are attacked and have to use them, you will not be charged
with anything arising out of your defending yourself even with an
unlawfully held weapon.
|
OK..sounds fair - I hope it's true in practice! |
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Richard Miller
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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In message <l42dnWD7xte_ReLVnZ2dnUVZ8qXinZ2d@giganews.com>, Marcus Fox
<please-reply-via-newsgroup-th@-i-posted-to.com> writes
| Quote: |
"Maria" <info@tajarts.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0a0215b8-0867-45de-a2de-9fade7fa20b6@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
When considering the question of self-defence, as I understand it, one
is *not* allowed to use a knife for self-defence even if one happens
to have a lawful excuse for carrying it or it is 'legal' knife (i.e.a
pocket knife).
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
The area of weapons is tricky IMHO since it would be (AFAIK) unlawful
to use any object as a weapon, which rather undermines one's ability
to defend oneself against somone who is (unlawfully) armed...
There was a shopkeeper a while back who ended up killing a knife wielding
thug who was trying to rob his shop. The weapon used was the knife that the
thug was threatening him with. Apparently there was a struggle and the
protagonist was fatally wounded. The shopkeeper was charged with murder.
Never knew what the outcome of the case was though.
|
The shopkeeper was not charged with murder. He was questioned by police,
who nfa'd it.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article3449075.ece
--
Richard Miller |
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Richard Miller
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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In message <6eac7vF66tjdU1@mid.individual.net>, Blue <blue@there.com>
writes
| Quote: |
Maria wrote:
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
In reality, as with most court cases, the ones with the most cash wins.
|
That is neither relevant in the examples Maria posts nor true in
general.
--
Richard Miller |
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Richard Miller
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
|
|
In message
<0a0215b8-0867-45de-a2de-9fade7fa20b6@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Maria <info@tajarts.co.uk> writes
| Quote: |
When considering the question of self-defence, as I understand it, one
is *not* allowed to use a knife for self-defence even if one happens
to have a lawful excuse for carrying it or it is 'legal' knife (i.e.a
pocket knife).
|
No, that is wrong. "Reasonable force" could easily extend to using a
knife, and it will be a jury made up of people like you who decide if it
was reasonable.
It is not considered to be a reasonable excuse for carrying a knife if
your *only* reason for having it is self-defence; but if the relevant
circumstances arose and you used it, that would not be unlawful.
| Quote: |
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
|
Correct.
| Quote: |
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
|
I cannot conceive of any circumstance where a jury would consider that
to be unlawful - indeed, it is hard to imagine a case where it would get
as far as a jury.
| Quote: |
The area of weapons is tricky IMHO since it would be (AFAIK) unlawful
to use any object as a weapon, which rather undermines one's ability
to defend oneself against somone who is (unlawfully) armed...
|
No, it is unlawful to carry certain objects purely for use as a weapon,
but if you are attacked and have to use them, you will not be charged
with anything arising out of your defending yourself even with an
unlawfully held weapon.
--
Richard Miller |
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