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Palindrome
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 Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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Richard Miller wrote:
| Quote: |
In message
0a0215b8-0867-45de-a2de-9fade7fa20b6@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Maria <info@tajarts.co.uk> writes
When considering the question of self-defence, as I understand it, one
is *not* allowed to use a knife for self-defence even if one happens
to have a lawful excuse for carrying it or it is 'legal' knife (i.e.a
pocket knife).
No, that is wrong. "Reasonable force" could easily extend to using a
knife, and it will be a jury made up of people like you who decide if it
was reasonable.
It is not considered to be a reasonable excuse for carrying a knife if
your *only* reason for having it is self-defence; but if the relevant
circumstances arose and you used it, that would not be unlawful.
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
Correct.
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
I cannot conceive of any circumstance where a jury would consider that
to be unlawful - indeed, it is hard to imagine a case where it would get
as far as a jury.
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There does seem to be a fairly obvious one - where any doubt over who
"started it" can be established.
It would presumably be easier to escape prosecution for injuring a
neighbour in my kitchen than doing so in his - even though I had only
popped around to return the carving knife I had borrowed..
I would suspect that there would be another fairly obvious one - where
the injured person was clearly totally outmatched, even though they had
a knife.
| Quote: |
The area of weapons is tricky IMHO since it would be (AFAIK) unlawful
to use any object as a weapon, which rather undermines one's ability
to defend oneself against somone who is (unlawfully) armed...
No, it is unlawful to carry certain objects purely for use as a weapon,
but if you are attacked and have to use them, you will not be charged
with anything arising out of your defending yourself even with an
unlawfully held weapon.
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With respect, I think the law is a bit more demanding than not carrying
"certain objects purely for use as a weapon". That would allow any other
reason for carrying it, however spurious, as a "get out of jail free
card". "I carried my diver's knife into the pub because I thought that
it might get stolen if I left it in my car" - presumably wouldn't hack it..
--
Sue |
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Les Invalides
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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Richard Miller <richard@seasalter0.demon.co.uk> posted
| Quote: |
No, it is unlawful to carry certain objects purely for use as a weapon,
but if you are attacked and have to use them, you will not be charged
with anything arising out of your defending yourself even with an
unlawfully held weapon.
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What is your source for that? The Gnango case seems to imply otherwise.
--
Les Invalides |
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Cynic
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:12:17 -0700 (PDT), Maria <info@tajarts.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: |
When considering the question of self-defence, as I understand it, one
is *not* allowed to use a knife for self-defence even if one happens
to have a lawful excuse for carrying it or it is 'legal' knife (i.e.a
pocket knife).
|
No, you are incorrect. You may use *anything* in self defence so long
as it is considered reasonable in relation to the threat. That
includes an illegal weapon.
If however the weapon you use is illegal (a crime that would be
treated as a separate offence) , it raises the distinct possibility
that you had planned to use it all along, and so you were not acting
in genuine self defence at all but had intended to commit an assault
long before a threat was present.
OTOH if you had an innocent reason for carrying the weapon which the
court believes, and it was entirely fortuitous that it was available
to you when you were attacked, then it will not make a lot of
difference to the issue of self defence whether or not it was legal to
carry it.
Thus a person who shoots someone with an illegally carried gun is more
likely to be acquitted on the grounds of self-defence if it can be
shown that he habitually carried an illegal gun all the time but had
never before used it than if that was the first and only time he had
ever carried an illegal gun.
(Although a jury would quite likely convict in the case of an
illegally carried handgun on emotive grounds, whatever the
circumstances).
--
Cynic |
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R. Mark Clayton
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Question - Knives and Self-Defence |
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"Maria" <info@tajarts.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0a0215b8-0867-45de-a2de-9fade7fa20b6@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
When considering the question of self-defence, as I understand it, one
is *not* allowed to use a knife for self-defence even if one happens
to have a lawful excuse for carrying it or it is 'legal' knife (i.e.a
pocket knife).
But also AIUI it is considered reasonable and proportionate to use the
amount and type of force one is threatened with, in self-defence. For
example, if you truly (and reasonably) believed that someone was about
to kill you then killing the perp would not disproportionate.
Given that, would it be unlawful to use a knife (carried lawfully or
with lawful excuse) against a person who was about to knife you and if
so, why?
The area of weapons is tricky IMHO since it would be (AFAIK) unlawful
to use any object as a weapon, which rather undermines one's ability
to defend oneself against somone who is (unlawfully) armed...
|
You can use a knife in self defence and the courts will acquit you: -
Ronnie Knights killed a man in a knife fight and was acquitted on self
defence.
Kenneth Noye stabbed PC John Fordham* to death and was acquitted on self
defence, but this did not work a second time when he killed a man in a fit
of road rage.
providing the use is reasonable
* Fordham was on duty, but was hiding in Noye's high walled garden wearing a
balaclava and combat fatigues in the middle of the night. |
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