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True Blue
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 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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"Robert Henderson" <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:KyGFZECL2XfIFwQa@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
| Quote: |
In message <obGdnR7heNhjZuHVnZ2dnUVZ8qjinZ2d@giganews.com>, True Blue
garybaggers@gmail.com> writes
Thatcher was captain of a ship in unchartered waters. They were so
unfamiliar because HMS Great Britain had been kept in the economic
shallows since 1945 by a succession of political homunculi. To make
faux-casual condemnations against someone who had the balls to make the
difficult descisions
Which had no effect on her or those she knew.... RH
|
The problem didn't lie with her or those she knew. Does the healthy surgeon
remove his own liver as an act of fairness after removing his patient's
cancerous one?
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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On Jul 16, 10:15 am, abelard <abela...@abelard.org> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:10:25 -0700 (PDT), forbisga...@msn.com wrote:
Times are just different. Sure, in 1958 I was dreaming of owning a
personal
computer
no you weren't
|
OK, I may be off by a few years.
This paper is from 1959.
http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/033/ibmrd0303B.pdf
I was reading Scientific American by first grade, that would have been
58.
I remember reading the article about it in Scientific American but I
don't
remember many of the details. By fourth grade we had a guy from IBM
come to school and talk about computer. I told him I was going to
own.
Most of my friends thought I was crazy for wanting a computer of my
own.
I was happy to learn how cheap computers had become when I first read
about SDS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Data_Systems
I was writing FORTRAN by 1966. In the year Instant Insanity came out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_Insanity
I wrote a program to solve it where I put the names of the colors on
cards, comma separated, one card per cube, then looked at the printout
to find the solution. So somewhere closer to 58 than 67 I started
dreaming
of owning a personal computer (even though I thought of them first as
room
sized, then as desk sized.) My first computer was an Altair 8800. I
got it
in 76.
I almost frogot about Forbidden Panet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet
I guess Altair reminded me. Robby seemed like a good idea.
Personal Robots have been a dream ever since as well. I was
very wrong about how soon that would happen.
I was trying to track down the exact time from my early reading
of "I, Robot". The copy I got wasn't really supposed to be sold.
the top half of the front cover had been ripped off. I learn several
years later that this was all they resubmitted to the publisher to
indicate that they didn't sell the book. The rest was supposed to
be destroyed. It's interesting (to me) that in my early mind I tied
"Robbie" of "I, Robot" to "Robby" of "Forbidden Planet."
After reading all of the "Luck Starr" series I could get at the
library
I learn that Paul French and Issac Asimov were one and the same.
I can place this before the Kennedy assination so that somewhere
between 58 and 63. I was heavily into SciFi. Dystopias didn't
matter.
I wish I could remember or find when Bell Labs demonstrated their
voice synthesizer on Ed Sullivan, since that might help me pin down
the time.
Why are we quibbling about 5 years in my preteens? |
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JNugent
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:26 am Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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William Black wrote:
| Quote: |
"Dead Paul" <dead_paul@no.reply> wrote:
William Black wrote:
"Robert Henderson" <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Ever since MacMillan made his fatuous remark "You've never had it so
good" British governments have peddled the lie that people are generally
getting wealthier and wealthier. To this lie was added the lie of the
"trickle down" effect to justify the immoral and reckless selfishness of
Thatcherism.
The truth is that most people today are worse off in the most
fundamental way, namely, they cannot afford to marry and bring up a
family on a single income. 50 years ago the ordinary man could raise a
family on his income alone.
He probably could today if he didn't run a car, didn't have central
heating, didn't have an inside toilet in his expensive house and his
wife didn't shop for food in supermarkets.
No that's not right. Cars were more expensive (relatively) in the 50's and
60's and yet many families with single wage had a car
Utter rubbish.
People who had cars fifty and sixty years ago were relativly rich.
|
That depends on what you mean by "relatively rich". UK car-owners around
1950 were certainly rich by the contemporary standards of (say) Ethiopea
or Bangla Desh, but you didn't have to be rich to have a car. OTOH, the
average Joe of 1950 probably regarded himself as fated never to be able
to afford a car, without necessarily thinking of himself as poor (WTMB).
My father probably never envisaged owning a car when he got married -
but by the time I was about 10, he had one.
| Quote: |
and today food is
much cheaper coming from a supermarket than your local butcher or veg shop
so quiting the Asda and going to a local shop will cost you more
Well...
No it won't.
As I'm retired I have the time to look around and price things.
It's always cheaper to shop somewhere other than Asda except for the special
offers...
|
That's a very carefully-worded statement.
Corner shop prices were real-terms quite a bit higher than prices in
supermarkets are today (they still are - in spadefuls). The turning
point was the ending of Resale Price Maintenance by Edward Heath when a
minister in Douglas-Home's government of 1963/64. After that,
supoermarkets were able to discount goods, thus gaining enough trade to
graduate from the high street to the edge of town with a car-park, etc. |
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JNugent
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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Robert Henderson wrote:
| Quote: |
In message <Xns9ADC5D26A9AB1VeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1>, Bert Hyman
bert@iphouse.com> writes
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk (Robert Henderson) wrote in
news:Fq5GvjU3QKfIFwBi@anywhere.demon.co.uk:
The truth is that most people today are worse off in the most
fundamental way, namely, they cannot afford to marry and bring up a
family on a single income. 50 years ago the ordinary man could raise
a family on his income alone.
What if people were willing to go back to the lifestyle of 50 years ago?
--
If by that you mean a single jobs being sufficient to maintain a family,
of having security of employment, a government commitment to council
housing, political will to defend our industry and a country which was
not tainted by mass immigration I am sure most would jump at it. RH
|
If they could pick from the list rather than having to take it as a job
lot, the result might not be as you imagine. |
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Robert Henderson
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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In message <ufOdnX4jCIsSGePVnZ2dnUVZ8vqdnZ2d@pipex.net>, JNugent
<JN@NPPTG.com> writes
| Quote: |
Robert Henderson wrote:
In message <Xns9ADC5D26A9AB1VeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1>, Bert Hyman
bert@iphouse.com> writes
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk (Robert Henderson) wrote in
news:Fq5GvjU3QKfIFwBi@anywhere.demon.co.uk:
The truth is that most people today are worse off in the most
fundamental way, namely, they cannot afford to marry and bring up a
family on a single income. 50 years ago the ordinary man could raise
a family on his income alone.
What if people were willing to go back to the lifestyle of 50 years ago?
--
If by that you mean a single jobs being sufficient to maintain a
family, of having security of employment, a government commitment to
council housing, political will to defend our industry and a country
which was not tainted by mass immigration I am sure most would jump at >>it. RH
If they could pick from the list rather than having to take it as a job
lot, the result might not be as you imagine.
|
But life is never like that: you have to live within the circumstances
of the period you live in.... RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk |
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Robert Henderson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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In message <ufOdnX8jCIsTHuPVnZ2dnUVZ8vqdnZ2d@pipex.net>, JNugent
<JN@NPPTG.com> writes
| Quote: |
As I'm retired I have the time to look around and price things.
It's always cheaper to shop somewhere other than Asda except for the
special offers...
That's a very carefully-worded statement.
Corner shop prices were real-terms quite a bit higher than prices in
supermarkets are today (they still are - in spadefuls). The turning
point was the ending of Resale Price Maintenance by Edward Heath when a
minister in Douglas-Home's government of 1963/64.
|
Brought in with a great fanfare about reducing prices. The year after it
was introduced inflation rose..... RH
| Quote: |
After that, supoermarkets were able to discount goods, thus gaining
enough trade to graduate from the high street to the edge of town with
a car-park, etc.
|
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk |
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Robert Henderson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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In message <35bs741ri1r1e73uhvgk2hph6mngb4rho6@4ax.com>, abelard
<abelard3@abelard.org> writes
| Quote: |
much less taisty purchased goods.
Times are just different. Sure, in 1958 I was dreaming of owning a
personal
computer
no you weren't
|
The idea of personal computers was in SF by that time.... RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk |
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Robert Henderson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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In message <Ip6dncrEKZbjsuPVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com>, True Blue
<garybaggers@gmail.com> writes
| Quote: |
unfamiliar because HMS Great Britain had been kept in the economic
shallows since 1945 by a succession of political homunculi. To make
faux-casual condemnations against someone who had the balls to make the
difficult descisions
Which had no effect on her or those she knew.... RH
The problem didn't lie with her or those she knew. Does the healthy
surgeon remove his own liver as an act of fairness after removing his
patient's cancerous one?
|
The surgeon does not inflict damage on the body of the patient
intentionally which is what the bitch did.... RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk |
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Robert Henderson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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In message <6e4en6F5a3k8U1@mid.individual.net>, Gaz <gazter@msn.com>
writes
| Quote: |
Robert Henderson wrote:
Ever since MacMillan made his fatuous remark "You've never had it so
good" British governments have peddled the lie that people are
generally getting wealthier and wealthier. To this lie was added the
lie of the "trickle down" effect to justify the immoral and reckless
selfishness of Thatcherism.
Keep your bread and dripping, keep your rickets, keep your outside toilet,
keep your tin bath once every two weeks, keep your single glazed, cold
houses with damp and squaller, keep your one only meat dish a week on a
sunday, keep your fifteen hour shifts, eighty hour weeks, with nothing to
show for it but a day trip to blackpool.
|
A world which was long gone by the fifties.... RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk |
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SPierce
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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"Robert Henderson" <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:V6xCrpJUStfIFwy7@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
| Quote: |
In message <6e4en6F5a3k8U1@mid.individual.net>, Gaz <gazter@msn.com
writes
Robert Henderson wrote:
Ever since MacMillan made his fatuous remark "You've never had it so
good" British governments have peddled the lie that people are
generally getting wealthier and wealthier. To this lie was added the
lie of the "trickle down" effect to justify the immoral and reckless
selfishness of Thatcherism.
Keep your bread and dripping, keep your rickets, keep your outside toilet,
keep your tin bath once every two weeks, keep your single glazed, cold
houses with damp and squaller, keep your one only meat dish a week on a
sunday, keep your fifteen hour shifts, eighty hour weeks, with nothing to
show for it but a day trip to blackpool.
A world which was long gone by the fifties.... RH
|
Not quite. No rickets. But single glazed windows were the norm...as were
the cold and damp. And landladies who would not allow a girl to be in the
bedsit after 10pm.
Never heard of 15 hour shifts except during the war. Never heard of 80
hour weeks either. After the Mini Minor came off the tracks at Longbridge
the incomes of factory workers were high enough for them to go to Spain for
holidays. But yes, it was a slower and more predictable life...but with
sights on a better future... a sense of hope still existed for those who had
fought for the country. Immigration and myscegenation killed it all. |
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Gaz
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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|
"Robert Henderson" <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:V6xCrpJUStfIFwy7@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
| Quote: |
In message <6e4en6F5a3k8U1@mid.individual.net>, Gaz <gazter@msn.com
writes
Robert Henderson wrote:
Ever since MacMillan made his fatuous remark "You've never had it so
good" British governments have peddled the lie that people are
generally getting wealthier and wealthier. To this lie was added the
lie of the "trickle down" effect to justify the immoral and reckless
selfishness of Thatcherism.
Keep your bread and dripping, keep your rickets, keep your outside toilet,
keep your tin bath once every two weeks, keep your single glazed, cold
houses with damp and squaller, keep your one only meat dish a week on a
sunday, keep your fifteen hour shifts, eighty hour weeks, with nothing to
show for it but a day trip to blackpool.
A world which was long gone by the fifties.... RH
|
For many many people it was still the same well into the sixties and early
seventies..
Gaz
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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|
On Jul 17, 5:33 am, abelard <abela...@abelard.org> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:52:07 -0700 (PDT), forbisga...@msn.com wrote:
On Jul 16, 10:15 am, abelard <abela...@abelard.org> wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:10:25 -0700 (PDT), forbisga...@msn.com wrote:
Times are just different. Sure, in 1958 I was dreaming of owning a
personal
computer
no you weren't
OK, I may be off by a few years.
This paper is from 1959.
http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/033/ibmrd0303B.pdf
I was reading Scientific American by first grade, that would have been
58.
I remember reading the article about it in Scientific American but I
don't
remember many of the details. By fourth grade we had a guy from IBM
come to school and talk about computer. I told him I was going to
own.
Most of my friends thought I was crazy for wanting a computer of my
own.
I was happy to learn how cheap computers had become when I first read
about SDS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Data_Systems
I was writing FORTRAN by 1966. In the year Instant Insanity came out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_Insanity
I wrote a program to solve it where I put the names of the colors on
cards, comma separated, one card per cube, then looked at the printout
to find the solution. So somewhere closer to 58 than 67 I started
dreaming
of owning a personal computer (even though I thought of them first as
room
sized, then as desk sized.) My first computer was an Altair 8800. I
got it
in 76.
I almost frogot about Forbidden Panet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet
I guess Altair reminded me. Robby seemed like a good idea.
Personal Robots have been a dream ever since as well. I was
very wrong about how soon that would happen.
I was trying to track down the exact time from my early reading
of "I, Robot". The copy I got wasn't really supposed to be sold.
the top half of the front cover had been ripped off. I learn several
years later that this was all they resubmitted to the publisher to
indicate that they didn't sell the book. The rest was supposed to
be destroyed. It's interesting (to me) that in my early mind I tied
"Robbie" of "I, Robot" to "Robby" of "Forbidden Planet."
After reading all of the "Luck Starr" series I could get at the
library
from another of my posts from the deep past:
i wonder when asimov made the connection between 'positronic brains'
and computers.
clearly he had by 1990....('the robot chronicles', in 'gold',
0006482023, pp 213-234)
he states effectively that he had no thought of computers being robots
in 1955 p.227
he states that by 1956 he was getting the idea....though i find him
unconvincing p.228
|
Just consider http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test
It should be obvious many were making the connection by 58.
I wasn't born until 52. Many of my early memories are fading
but many still exist. Certainly I was thinking about technology
in 56 but it wasn't computers but rather about our new airline
record player as opposed to the windup motorola my neighbor
had. During those two years between 56 and 58 I was watching
TV on my neighbor's set. I thought of her as an aunt and she
enjoyed having us, the neighbor kids, around. We had a TV
before 58 but my parrents lied about it working most of the time
though they say otherwise now. We were poor but one didn't
nottice when that's all one knew and we were rich in other ways
than money and things. Even at three years of age in Parsons
Kansas I was roaming freely and safely blocks from home.
It's hard to nail this stuff down because the first date I remember
is 1957 and the only reason I remember that date is because
my brother showed me the writing on our school pictures and
told me that the writing on it was the school year "1956-1957".
OK, I probably wasn't thinking of owning a computer in 1958.
Again, it's just a quibble of a few years. I learned boolean
algebra in about 1961 when my Dad had to learn it for his
new job at Boeing. I was the sounding board for tasks such
as drawing maps and simplifying by circles around sets of
ones. I was learning xy + x = x about the same time I was
learing xy + x = x(y+1).
My memories are skewed by youth. Everything seemed fresh
at the time and the possibilities were endless. I remember looking
up at the sky and seeing Sputnik move in the heavens. What
did I know of global politics? The important part was seeing a
man made object in the night sky. (pre-cub scouts) |
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Robert Henderson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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In message <f7Dfk.20390$IK1.6692@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, SPierce
<ecreipt@bigpond.net.au> writes
| Quote: |
A world which was long gone by the fifties.... RH
Not quite. No rickets. But single glazed windows were the norm.
|
Big deal.... RH
| Quote: |
..as were the cold and damp
|
Tosh. RH
| Quote: |
. And landladies who would not allow a girl to be in the bedsit after
10pm.
|
Only in theory. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk |
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Robert Henderson
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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In message <6e8hsgF55desU1@mid.individual.net>, Gaz <gazter@msn.com>
writes
| Quote: |
A world which was long gone by the fifties.... RH
For many many people it was still the same well into the sixties and
early seventies..
Gaz
|
Simply untrue. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk |
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abelard
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: The "we are all getting wealthier" lie |
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On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 05:34:57 +0100, Robert Henderson
<philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
In message <35bs741ri1r1e73uhvgk2hph6mngb4rho6@4ax.com>, abelard
abelard3@abelard.org> writes
much less taisty purchased goods.
Times are just different. Sure, in 1958 I was dreaming of owning a
personal computer
no you weren't
The idea of personal computers was in SF by that time.... RH
|
even asimov wasn't dreaming of owning a pc....
The complete stories, vol. 1, I.Asimov, 1994, harper collins,
0006476473,
from 'the feeling of power' pp297-308, first published in 1957
'for that matter, compare your pocket computer with the massive jobs
of a thousand years ago' p.304.
regards
--
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics
energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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