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Svenne
Guest
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 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
 |
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:00:31 +0100, James Hammerton
<jah.usenet@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
If a person carries a knife for purposes of self defence and is
attacked by someon wielding a knife, they can bet that their attacker
is far better with a knife than they are
Why?
|
Because if someone is in the habit of using a knife as a matter of
course, you can bet he's had a bit of practice and rather likes the
idea of slicing people up.
| Quote: |
and has far less inhibition
about using it (obviously, because that is just what they are doing).
Granted.
So pulling out a knife to ward off a knife wielding attacker is not a
very good strategy. It has much lower survival value then legging it.
Quite possibly. Now, suppose legging it isn't an option. What do you do?
|
Get stabbed.
Assuming you had a knife too, you could grovel and cry and beg for
mercy and hope that while he was getting his sadistic rocks off, you
might be able to surrepticiously get hold of your knife without him
noticing and then get a sudden surprise stab in while his guard was
down and he wasn't expecting it. Facing him off man to man like Rambo
would be a very bad idea.
But legging it at high speed is always the best option.
Svenne |
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James Hammerton
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:15 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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Mel Rowing wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 15, 7:30 pm, count zero <adrianbo...@postmaster.co.uk> wrote:
In the 18 Century England suffered a spate of garroting attacks this
was soon stopped by bringing in hanging.
I'm sure hanging goes back much further than that.
All the same, back in the 60's we as a nation were persuaded that we
could without cost or consequence abolish the ultimate sanction
against murder. Few believed it at the time and events since have
shown the persuaders to in fact have been wrong.
|
What studies have been done that disentangle all the other myriad of
changes that were occurring at the time and since to show that the
abolishing the DP contributed to the rise in crime independently of
other factors?
James
--
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/ |
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James Hammerton
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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Svenne wrote:
| Quote: |
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:00:31 +0100, James Hammerton
jah.usenet@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
If a person carries a knife for purposes of self defence and is
attacked by someon wielding a knife, they can bet that their attacker
is far better with a knife than they are
Why?
Because if someone is in the habit of using a knife
|
An assumption. He may just be practiced in intimidating people by
pulling his knife on them.
| Quote: |
as a matter of
course, you can bet he's had a bit of practice and rather likes the
idea of slicing people up.
and has far less inhibition
about using it (obviously, because that is just what they are doing).
Granted.
So pulling out a knife to ward off a knife wielding attacker is not a
very good strategy. It has much lower survival value then legging it.
Quite possibly. Now, suppose legging it isn't an option. What do you do?
Get stabbed.
|
Quite possibly.
| Quote: |
Assuming you had a knife too, you could grovel and cry and beg for
mercy and hope that while he was getting his sadistic rocks off, you
might be able to surrepticiously get hold of your knife without him
noticing and then get a sudden surprise stab in while his guard was
down and he wasn't expecting it. Facing him off man to man like Rambo
would be a very bad idea.
|
Not necessarily. Pulling your knife out might make him think twice. It
depends on whether the person concerned is intent on knifing you or has
some other motive. Even if the former, it might be his first time and he
may not be ready to take the risk of being knifed himself.
Granted if he's experienced and taken a few slashes himself, and he's
still doing this sort of shit to people, you're probably gonna get
stabbed regardless.
Possibly the better preparation is to have been trained in disarming
techniques and martial arts though. You might get cut, but you might
also stand a chance of disarming or disabling the attacker and getting
away.
| Quote: |
But legging it at high speed is always the best option.
|
Agreed, if it is available. I regard that as an axiom for just about any
self defence situation.
I really should train myself to be able to do a reasonable fast 800m (or
more)...
James
--
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/ |
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William Black
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:20 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
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"Dr Quite" <quite@quite.com> wrote in message
news:487d1c0d$0$635$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
| Quote: |
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g5imik$veb$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Maria" <info@tajarts.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fa27955d-329d-4651-85e8-b391a3346f95@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 15, 2:31 pm, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...@gmail.com
wrote:
Maria wrote:
Large numbers of people are in despair at the number and types of
knives being carried by people in Britain today, and a number of
people in these groups have commented that may of us (including
myself) used carry knives when we were kids but never hurt anyone
with
them. The worst incident I remember personally was watching someone
stab himself in the foot playing that silly chicken game where you
tried to throw the knife into the ground as near to your foot as you
could get.
People seem bemused as to what is causing the present phenomenon of
knife-carrying, and I just wondered if it really is merely about
prohibition - that knife carrying was normal and allowed when we were
kids but now it isn't, so there is more risk and attraction to it.
Every other type of behaviour prohibited by law seems to be more
common after prohibition than before, though I have not heard one
person in the public debate suggest it as a reason in this case.
Do I recall correctly that the first person prosecuted ('to set an
example') under the modern knife-carrying law was a carpet-fitter
'caught' with a Stanley Knife in the glovebox of his car?
Well, let's get this in perspective.
It is largely a problem of Blacks stabbing Blacks (or more rarely
others). Take out those stats and the situation isn't much worse than
it
was 20 years ago.
http://www.capitalradio.co.uk/article.asp?id=532062
The Whites on this list were killed by 'ethnics' - not other Whites.
Is it though? Mr Black was on here the other day saying that Hull has
a high rate of knife crime - not many black people there...
No I didn't.
I said that there was a very high murder rate there.
And then wriggled when asked for details that might have illuminated
things.
|
No.
I said they seem to have a murder rate four times higher than the rest of
the country.
I don't know why and I don't know what they kill each other with, although
when they get into the papers (about once a week) it's usually a knife.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea. |
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William Black
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
|
"James Hammerton" <jah.usenet@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6e4lr5F5btikU1@mid.individual.net...
| Quote: |
Mel Rowing wrote:
On Jul 15, 7:30 pm, count zero <adrianbo...@postmaster.co.uk> wrote:
In the 18 Century England suffered a spate of garroting attacks this
was soon stopped by bringing in hanging.
I'm sure hanging goes back much further than that.
All the same, back in the 60's we as a nation were persuaded that we
could without cost or consequence abolish the ultimate sanction
against murder. Few believed it at the time and events since have
shown the persuaders to in fact have been wrong.
What studies have been done that disentangle all the other myriad of
changes that were occurring at the time and since to show that the
abolishing the DP contributed to the rise in crime independently of other
factors?
|
It doesn't matter.
That's not why they abolished it.
They abolished it because they kept hanging the wrong person.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea. |
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Dead Paul
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:27:46 +0100, Edster wrote:
| Quote: |
If censoring entertainment is the answer, why hasn't there been a
decrease in violent crime since the mid 1980s when video censorship
was introduced? The current generation of children that is running
around stabbing each other is the generation that was deprived of
italian zombie films in order to make them less violent. Idiots like
you are just using them as an excuse for even more restrictions on
what adults can do.
|
Night of the Living Dead!! Yikes!
That was a terrible film. lol
Seems like all the furore is over black knife crime old bean.
--
___ _______ ___ ___ ___ __ ____
/ _ \/ __/ _ | / _ \ / _ \/ _ |/ / / / /
/ // / _// __ |/ // / / ___/ __ / /_/ / /__
/____/___/_/ |_/____/ /_/ /_/ |_\____/____/ |
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Dead Paul
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:40:10 +0100, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
| Quote: |
Paul Hyett wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 at 04:49:31, Maria <info@tajarts.co.uk> wrote in
uk.legal :
Large numbers of people are in despair at the number and types of
knives being carried by people in Britain today, and a number of
people in these groups have commented that may of us (including
myself) used carry knives when we were kids but never hurt anyone with
them. The worst incident I remember personally was watching someone
stab himself in the foot playing that silly chicken game where you
tried to throw the knife into the ground as near to your foot as you
could get.
I hope their prize for winning was worth it... :)
We always used to play that as kids.
No problems.
|
That's right, everyone played it.
--
___ _______ ___ ___ ___ __ ____
/ _ \/ __/ _ | / _ \ / _ \/ _ |/ / / / /
/ // / _// __ |/ // / / ___/ __ / /_/ / /__
/____/___/_/ |_/____/ /_/ /_/ |_\____/____/ |
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Dead Paul
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
|
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:09:07 -0700, Maria wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 15, 2:31 pm, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...@gmail.com
wrote:
Maria wrote:
Large numbers of people are in despair at the number and types of
knives being carried by people in Britain today, and a number of
people in these groups have commented that may of us (including
myself) used carry knives when we were kids but never hurt anyone with
them. The worst incident I remember personally was watching someone
stab himself in the foot playing that silly chicken game where you
tried to throw the knife into the ground as near to your foot as you
could get.
People seem bemused as to what is causing the present phenomenon of
knife-carrying, and I just wondered if it really is merely about
prohibition - that knife carrying was normal and allowed when we were
kids but now it isn't, so there is more risk and attraction to it.
Every other type of behaviour prohibited by law seems to be more
common after prohibition than before, though I have not heard one
person in the public debate suggest it as a reason in this case.
Do I recall correctly that the first person prosecuted ('to set an
example') under the modern knife-carrying law was a carpet-fitter
'caught' with a Stanley Knife in the glovebox of his car?
Well, let's get this in perspective.
It is largely a problem of Blacks stabbing Blacks (or more rarely
others). Take out those stats and the situation isn't much worse than it
was 20 years ago.
http://www.capitalradio.co.uk/article.asp?id=532062
The Whites on this list were killed by 'ethnics' - not other Whites.
Is it though? Mr Black was on here the other day saying that Hull has
a high rate of knife crime - not many black people there...
|
It's all manipulation. Any level of crime is too high and they'll work
at removing our rights until there's nothing left.
--
___ _______ ___ ___ ___ __ ____
/ _ \/ __/ _ | / _ \ / _ \/ _ |/ / / / /
/ // / _// __ |/ // / / ___/ __ / /_/ / /__
/____/___/_/ |_/____/ /_/ /_/ |_\____/____/ |
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Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
|
On 16 Jul, 17:46, Edster <m...@privacy.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
It said on the news the other day that crime amongst girls is
increasing. Is that just amongst white girls? It didn't mention race,
but the stock clip they showed just had white girls in it.
|
That's because it was about crime.
If the report was about getting top grade A levels the clip would have
shown bright young Muslim girls wearing chic designer headscarves with
perhaps a West Indian or two thrown in just for balance.
Svenne |
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Edster
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
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James Hammerton <jah.usenet@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
Maybe all that's needed is to allow "self defence" as one of the
reasonable excuses though, except you'd object it also provides "carte
blanche".
|
You would end up with old grannies stabbing little kids because they
thought they were laughing at them in a sinister way. |
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Mike Ross
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:10:19 +0100, James Hammerton <jah.usenet@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: |
Mike Ross wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:29:10 +0100, "Tom" <Not@chance.com> wrote:
snip
You right about having the right to carry any other knife (*with certain
restrictions*) if you have a good reason for doing so.
Criminal Justice Act, 1988. Section 139(1).
Offence: It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good
reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or
is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting
edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches.
*Some knives are classed as offensive weapons such as flick knives, gravity
knives and bladed weapons concealed within other objects (i.e. belt buckle
knives) and cannot be carried under any circumstances
I've heard this bandied about more than once and no-one has been able to quote
the relevant legislation.
From:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/ukpga_19880033_en_14#pt11-pb3-l1g139
"139 Offence of having article with blade or point in public place
(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an
article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall
be guilty of an offence.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article
which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.
(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of
its blade exceeds 3 inches.
(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under
this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for
having the article with him in a public place.
(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it
shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this
section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a) for use at work;
(b) for religious reasons; or
(c) as part of any national costume.
(6) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be
liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the
standard scale.
(7) In this section “public place” includes any place to which at the
material time the public have or are permitted access, whether on
payment or otherwise.
( This section shall not have effect in relation to anything done
before it comes into force. "
Satisfied?
|
No.
| Quote: |
You could have looked it up on the basis of the information
already posted.
|
I didn't need to - I had already read the above legislation, which I was I was
pretty sure there was no blanket ban on carrying gravity/flick knives.
What I wondered was, was the previous poster aware of some OTHER legislation I
hadn't heard about, which affected the *carrying* of such knives, over and above
the above cited act? No-one has ever been able to cite such legislation, so I
can only presume it doesn't exist.
Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within' |
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Edster
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
|
James Hammerton <jah.usenet@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
Mel Rowing wrote:
On Jul 15, 7:30 pm, count zero <adrianbo...@postmaster.co.uk> wrote:
In the 18 Century England suffered a spate of garroting attacks this
was soon stopped by bringing in hanging.
I'm sure hanging goes back much further than that.
All the same, back in the 60's we as a nation were persuaded that we
could without cost or consequence abolish the ultimate sanction
against murder. Few believed it at the time and events since have
shown the persuaders to in fact have been wrong.
What studies have been done that disentangle all the other myriad of
changes that were occurring at the time and since to show that the
abolishing the DP contributed to the rise in crime independently of
other factors?
James
|
In the 60s and 70s all the teachers were thugs who would regularly
beat children with sticks at the slightest excuse. It started from the
age of 5, and continued up until school leaving age at 15. Apart from
all the broken bones and mental health issues in later life, it never
did us any harm. |
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Edster
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
|
Mel Rowing <mel.rowing@btinternet.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 15, 7:30 pm, count zero <adrianbo...@postmaster.co.uk> wrote:
In the 18 Century England suffered a spate of garroting attacks this
was soon stopped by bringing in hanging.
I'm sure hanging goes back much further than that.
All the same, back in the 60's we as a nation were persuaded that we
could without cost or consequence abolish the ultimate sanction
against murder. Few believed it at the time and events since have
shown the persuaders to in fact have been wrong.
|
I would be all for it if you could un-kill someone years later when
you found out the police had planted false evidence on them because
they were under pressure from the media to close a case, or the
government to meet crime solving targets. |
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Edster
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
|
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bruere@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Edster wrote:
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bruere@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, let's get this in perspective.
It is largely a problem of Blacks stabbing Blacks (or more rarely
others). Take out those stats and the situation isn't much worse than it
was 20 years ago.
If thats the case, why didn't it start happening in the early 1970s
when they first started moving here in large numbers? Why would it
take over 30 years to start happening?
Because Black (male) culture has changed for the worse. The original
immigrants were decent, socialised, people who came here and stepped
into jobs, acquired housing etc. Their (male) children just can't hack
it in White society. That's why they are obsessed with status symbols,
from BMWs with spinner wheels to guns.
Compare Black women's education levels with those of Black males.
|
Why wouldn't the women be subject to the same influences as the men?
It said on the news the other day that crime amongst girls is
increasing. Is that just amongst white girls? It didn't mention race,
but the stock clip they showed just had white girls in it. |
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Colonel Colt
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
|
"Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" <dirk.bruere@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6e47h1F596vkU2@mid.individual.net...
| Quote: |
That's what happens now, whether it's kiddie porn, Jihadi propaganda or
'inappropriate' high energy chemistry texts downloaded from the Net.
'Jihadi propaganda' is not illegal to look at, unless the prosecution can |
show that you have a terrorist motive for looking at it. No one who looked
at the video of the beheading of Ken Bigley for ghoulish reasons committed
an offence. |
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