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Alang
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 Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:51:36 -0700 (PDT), Mel Rowing
<mel.rowing@btinternet.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 15, 6:31 pm, James Hammerton <jah.use...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
If I carry a knife of any size, that action causes no harm to anyone.
Why should I be required to provide "reasonable excuse" to the
authorities for doing so?
Because the lack of such a requirement would in itself be a carte
blanche for individuals to tool up and prowl the streets equipped to
cause death or serious injury. Society is a little more than an
aggregation of rights there is room for some responsibility too.
Why should a suspected burglar not be asked to account for a hammer or
a jemmy on his person?
Do you not believe in crime prevention of are you one of those who
feels that a criminal should only be challenged after he has
committed a crime. In the case of knife crime that can be tragically
and sickenly too late.
|
I believe you have a penis. You should be arrested and imprisoned
immediately for going equipped for rape. It would be a tragedy if some
poor girl was assaulted because we let a potential criminal like you
go free |
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Svenne
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:28:31 -0700 (PDT), Mel Rowing
<mel.rowing@btinternet.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
If you ever claimed to me that you had knifed someone in self defence
to a knife threat from that person then the first answer I would want
from you is how come you got your knife stroke in before he did?
|
If a person carries a knife for purposes of self defence and is
attacked by someon wielding a knife, they can bet that their attacker
is far better with a knife than they are and has far less inhibition
about using it (obviously, because that is just what they are doing).
So pulling out a knife to ward off a knife wielding attacker is not a
very good strategy. It has much lower survival value then legging it.
Svenne |
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William Black
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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"Svenne" <tvaerskaegg@aol.com> wrote in message
news:spup74l0p8u1am4qhofg05srhaprk4oolq@4ax.com...
| Quote: |
If a person carries a knife for purposes of self defence and is
attacked by someon wielding a knife, they can bet that their attacker
is far better with a knife than they are and has far less inhibition
about using it (obviously, because that is just what they are doing).
|
That's an unfounded assumption.
The defender could well be the 'All England knife fighting champion' (If
there is such a person) on their way home after a light practice session.
As I understand it a number of members of the armed forces are trained in
knife fighting. I'd hate to go after one of them with a six inch stiletto
and whatever knowledge I'd picked up playing about outside the chip shop the
weekend before...
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea. |
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Richard Miller
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:11 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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In message
<ee5d3a24-6d6b-498f-9cdf-6292d9cdc0f8@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Maria <info@tajarts.co.uk> writes
| Quote: |
Lol...I don't remember anyone dying, or even being badly injured.
|
Perhaps that's because at that age you would not have been aware of such
news stories.
| Quote: |
Maybe my memory is failing but then I mostly wasn't there. I do
remember one rare incident, a stabbing, and the victim died - the perp
(who was a very nice lad who was very drunk at the time and things went
totally out of control ) went to prison for 20 years. Proper 20 years,
not 10 or 7or 7 or something.
|
You mean a tariff on his life sentence for murder.
Exactly the same as happens today.
| Quote: |
But I do not recall the scale of deaths that are reported now. Have I
missed something? Were there lots of deaths by boot, or by anything at
all, or just lots of fighting? There has always been fighting...
|
And there has always been killing.
--
Richard Miller |
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Svenne
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:37 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:48:22 +0100, "William Black"
<william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Svenne" <tvaerskaegg@aol.com> wrote in message
news:spup74l0p8u1am4qhofg05srhaprk4oolq@4ax.com...
If a person carries a knife for purposes of self defence and is
attacked by someon wielding a knife, they can bet that their attacker
is far better with a knife than they are and has far less inhibition
about using it (obviously, because that is just what they are doing).
That's an unfounded assumption.
|
The sort of person who pulls out a knife aggressively as a matter of
course has likely had more practice using it than someone who carries
one just in case for defence. He'll have much less restraint about
using it, too. It would likely be a very uneven match.
| Quote: |
The defender could well be the 'All England knife fighting champion' (If
there is such a person) on their way home after a light practice session.
|
Not if it were me. But then I've not carried a knife since I used to
go camping as a teenager many moons ago. It was a bloody big thing,
too, more like a scimitar than a knife. It would probably get me ten
years if I carried it today.
Svenne |
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Mike Ross
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:29:10 +0100, "Tom" <Not@chance.com> wrote:
<snip>
| Quote: |
You right about having the right to carry any other knife (*with certain
restrictions*) if you have a good reason for doing so.
Criminal Justice Act, 1988. Section 139(1).
Offence: It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good
reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or
is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting
edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches.
*Some knives are classed as offensive weapons such as flick knives, gravity
knives and bladed weapons concealed within other objects (i.e. belt buckle
knives) and cannot be carried under any circumstances
|
I've heard this bandied about more than once and no-one has been able to quote
the relevant legislation. I think you're wrong. AFAIK it is illegal to sell,
rent, or import a flick knife, gravity knife etc. - but it is NOT illegal to own
one, and it's no more illegal to carry one than it is to carry any other knife,
i.e. it's legal if you have a 'good reason' for doing so.
Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within' |
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William Black
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:50 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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"Svenne" <tvaerskaegg@aol.com> wrote in message
news:m32q74lc2glvllivih19gef6b89ualkcoh@4ax.com...
| Quote: |
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:48:22 +0100, "William Black"
william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
"Svenne" <tvaerskaegg@aol.com> wrote in message
news:spup74l0p8u1am4qhofg05srhaprk4oolq@4ax.com...
If a person carries a knife for purposes of self defence and is
attacked by someon wielding a knife, they can bet that their attacker
is far better with a knife than they are and has far less inhibition
about using it (obviously, because that is just what they are doing).
That's an unfounded assumption.
The sort of person who pulls out a knife aggressively as a matter of
course has likely had more practice using it than someone who carries
one just in case for defence.
|
That's an unfounded assumption.
He may just be very agressive.
| Quote: |
He'll have much less restraint about
using it, too.
|
Quite possibly true.
| Quote: |
It would likely be a very uneven match.
|
Again, that's an unwarranted assumption.
| Quote: |
The defender could well be the 'All England knife fighting champion' (If
there is such a person) on their way home after a light practice session.
Not if it were me. But then I've not carried a knife since I used to
go camping as a teenager many moons ago. It was a bloody big thing,
too, more like a scimitar than a knife. It would probably get me ten
years if I carried it today.
|
Then you'd be perfectly justified in running away, as would I.
Unless I had my bag of swords with me...
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea. |
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William Black
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:57 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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"Mike Ross" <mike@corestore.org> wrote in message
news:5r2q74deh33pnb0499pmc9g0um2hju4j67@4ax.com...
| Quote: |
I've heard this bandied about more than once and no-one has been able to
quote
the relevant legislation. I think you're wrong. AFAIK it is illegal to
sell,
rent, or import a flick knife, gravity knife etc. - but it is NOT illegal
to own
one, and it's no more illegal to carry one than it is to carry any other
knife,
i.e. it's legal if you have a 'good reason' for doing so.
|
True.
I've seen WWI re-enactors carry knuckle dusters with knives attached and
WWII re-enactors carry 'gravity knives'. These items are not even allowed
to be sold to most of us, never mind shown off in a public place.
The Home Office (or whatever they're called this week) accepts re-enactment
as a 'good reason' for all sorts of stuff to do with weapons.
It's the reason the Sealed Knot can go marching down the street carrying
firearms and a selection of huge edged weapons without any problems from the
local plod.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea. |
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Dr Quite
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:46 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g5j2hs$q55$1@registered.motzarella.org...
| Quote: |
"Svenne" <tvaerskaegg@aol.com> wrote in message
news:m32q74lc2glvllivih19gef6b89ualkcoh@4ax.com...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:48:22 +0100, "William Black"
william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
"Svenne" <tvaerskaegg@aol.com> wrote in message
news:spup74l0p8u1am4qhofg05srhaprk4oolq@4ax.com...
If a person carries a knife for purposes of self defence and is
attacked by someon wielding a knife, they can bet that their attacker
is far better with a knife than they are and has far less inhibition
about using it (obviously, because that is just what they are doing).
That's an unfounded assumption.
The sort of person who pulls out a knife aggressively as a matter of
course has likely had more practice using it than someone who carries
one just in case for defence.
That's an unfounded assumption.
He may just be very agressive.
|
Yes, it's not really a question of practice. Most of the kids who carry
knives have no "practice" in how to fight with a knife. The emotion of the
moment, the amount of aggression, the will to win, are more important. |
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Dr Quite
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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"Mel Rowing" <mel.rowing@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:b275362d-c644-48e0-a473-60278e5b0e6d@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
What the hell do you think the courts are for if it is not
to determine innocence or guilt under the law?
You seem to harbour the belief that police should be the sole
arbiters of justice.
|
Now that's what I call having your cake and eating it. You want people
who've not committed a crime to be prevented from carrying a knife (and
presumably arrested by the police if they do carry one), *and* you want the
courts to decide their innocence or guilt. |
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Dr Quite
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:52 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g5imik$veb$1@registered.motzarella.org...
| Quote: |
"Maria" <info@tajarts.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fa27955d-329d-4651-85e8-b391a3346f95@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 15, 2:31 pm, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...@gmail.com
wrote:
Maria wrote:
Large numbers of people are in despair at the number and types of
knives being carried by people in Britain today, and a number of
people in these groups have commented that may of us (including
myself) used carry knives when we were kids but never hurt anyone with
them. The worst incident I remember personally was watching someone
stab himself in the foot playing that silly chicken game where you
tried to throw the knife into the ground as near to your foot as you
could get.
People seem bemused as to what is causing the present phenomenon of
knife-carrying, and I just wondered if it really is merely about
prohibition - that knife carrying was normal and allowed when we were
kids but now it isn't, so there is more risk and attraction to it.
Every other type of behaviour prohibited by law seems to be more
common after prohibition than before, though I have not heard one
person in the public debate suggest it as a reason in this case.
Do I recall correctly that the first person prosecuted ('to set an
example') under the modern knife-carrying law was a carpet-fitter
'caught' with a Stanley Knife in the glovebox of his car?
Well, let's get this in perspective.
It is largely a problem of Blacks stabbing Blacks (or more rarely
others). Take out those stats and the situation isn't much worse than it
was 20 years ago.
http://www.capitalradio.co.uk/article.asp?id=532062
The Whites on this list were killed by 'ethnics' - not other Whites.
Is it though? Mr Black was on here the other day saying that Hull has
a high rate of knife crime - not many black people there...
No I didn't.
I said that there was a very high murder rate there.
|
And then wriggled when asked for details that might have illuminated things. |
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James Hammerton
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:59 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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Mel Rowing wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 15, 7:27 pm, James Hammerton <jah.use...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Mel Rowing wrote:
On Jul 15, 6:31 pm, James Hammerton <jah.use...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
If I carry a knife of any size, that action causes no harm to anyone.
Why should I be required to provide "reasonable excuse" to the
authorities for doing so?
Because the lack of such a requirement would in itself be a carte
blanche for individuals to tool up and prowl the streets equipped to
cause death or serious injury.
But equally, it provides carte blanche for their intended victims to arm
themselves for such an eventuality.
At the moment, those who don't care about breaking the law have little
reason to choose not to carry a knife, whilst those who abide by the law
are put at a disadvantage.
Maybe all that's needed is to allow "self defence" as one of the
reasonable excuses though, except you'd object it also provides "carte
blanche".
I most certainly would!
The Wild West Frontier was closed in the 1890s I believe.
|
Why do you believe that allowing people to carry weapons for self
defence would open up a "wild west"?
| Quote: |
In all my 67 years I have never found the need to carry anything more
menacing than a pen knife ( I still have one somewhere) I never
threatened anybody with it and more to the point, I have never been
threatened with a knife of any description despite becoming involved
in one or two confrontational situations during that time.
|
Luck you.And lucky me. I too have never had a knife pulled on me, nor
have I ever carried one, other than on picnics or when I've bought
cutlery to prepare and eat food with.
| Quote: |
The day that the carrying of weapons for reason of self defence
becomes the day when we return to in effect duelling.
|
Why on earth would the carry of weapons for self defence entail a return
to duelling?
| Quote: |
Young men or
groups of young men agreeing to settle their differences with knives.
This was made illegal 150 years or more ago when the law was changed
for the better by making the defence of "self defence" inadmissable in
the case of a pre-arranged contest.
|
Well that's presumably on the sound grounds that if it's pre-arranged it
clearly ain't self defence!
I note that this LONG predates the laws that prevented us from carrying
weapons for self defence.
| Quote: |
If young men want to defend their honour then they can do so in
relative safety with fists as I had to do until I learned more sense.
|
I'm not talking about "defending honour".
| Quote: |
That way they will be unlucky to end up with a fine and at the very
worst will live to fight another day.
If they resort to weapons then they are and should be in serious
trouble. The reason why any deliquent "does not care" about breaking
the law is because the consequences of breaking the law are not as
severe as perhaps they once were. In my world delinquents would not be
able to afford to be so blase.
|
Nor would they in mine. Being blase might mean getting stabbed by the
person you attack.
| Quote: |
Society is a little more than an
aggregation of rights there is room for some responsibility too.
Where did I say otherwise?
You strongly imply a right to carry a knife as some form of personal
reason.
|
Yes, and?
| Quote: |
Why should a suspected burglar not be asked to account for a hammer or
a jemmy on his person?
Where did I say otherwise?
Well what is the difference?
|
In one case you have reason to suspect the person is a burglar.
| Quote: |
In both cases you punish an implied
intent to commit crime.
|
Except carrying a knife does not imply an intent to commit a crime.
| Quote: |
Do you not believe in crime prevention
as a society we forbid the carrying of weapons.
|
Indeed and this is a relatively recent development, AIUI that occurred
within your lifetime, i.e. the 1953 act mentioned in other threads.
| Quote: |
I wonder why? I would
suggest it's to prevent these weapons from being used illegally.
|
In which case, it has failed, because they are clearly being used
illegally to this day.
| Quote: |
If
you wound someone with a knife or worse then you will be held to
account except in the rare circumstance that you were defending
yourself in a manner proportionate to the threat offered with a knife
that fortuitously you had access to and not one that just "happened"
to be in your person whilst on a boozy night out.
|
If you wound someone with a knife you should be held to account, and
self defence, or defence of another, ISTM is the only valid excuse you
have for doing so. Carrying a knife per se does not harm anyone though
and shouldn't be a crime.
| Quote: |
of are you one of those who
feels that a criminal should only be challenged after he has
committed a crime.
(a) such a stance is not implied by me asking that question - this is
another straw man.
It most certainly is!
|
Glad you agree it's a straw man, or if I've misunderstood (your comment
is ambiguous), please explain how my question implies anything of the
sort? A policeman is as free to challenge someone he is suspicious of,
prior to him committing any crime, with the ban on knives as he is
without it.
| Quote: |
(b) allowing people to carry knives does not prevent challenges being
made. In fact, it may even facilitate challenges from other members of
the public who may feel better able to defend themselves should those
being challenged turn on them.
The possession of a knife by two parties in conflict is in itself an
aggravated confrontational situation.
|
The prospect that your intended victim might pull a knife out on you
himself will deter attack.
| Quote: |
When faced with a knife a better
resonse might be "I haven't go a weapon" and the adoption a placative
posture (hands held out palms facing the assailant) and "talk him
down".
|
Agreed that might be the case (each case is likely to be different
though), but what if it doesn't work? You may need a further means of
deterring them or defending yourself if so.
| Quote: |
Alternatively you can inform him that if he uses that knife then he
most certainly will be in trouble and suggest he might prefer to cut
his losses.
|
True, but this won't always work.
| Quote: |
Either strategy might or might not work but one strategy that almost
certainly wouldn't work would be to pull a knife on him.
|
Why not? You earlier claimed this was an escalation. I agree. But the
prospect of getting cut himself, may deter your attacker. So I disagree
it "almost certainly" will fail. It may be your only chance to deter the
aggressor.
| Quote: |
You them give
him the same cockeyed defence
|
It is not cockeyed. If someone pulls a knife on you, that is a life
threatening situation. You should be allowed to use lethal force to
defend yourself in such circumstances.
that you will claim yourself. If you
| Quote: |
hurt him or worse you yourself will face serious charges and rightly
so.
|
Why "rightly so" if it is self defence?
Also ISTM your argument about him giving the same defence applies even
if we're both unarmed. Once the fisticuffs start, we're likely both to
be injured and then unless there are witnesses, it's my word against his
as to who attacked whom.
| Quote: |
If you ever claimed to me that you had knifed someone in self defence
to a knife threat from that person then the first answer I would want
from you is how come you got your knife stroke in before he did?
|
Luckily I managed to dodge his first attack and (simultaneously) countered.
Personally, I probably wouldn't carry a knife or use it in this way.
James
--
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/ |
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James Hammerton
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:00 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
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Svenne wrote:
| Quote: |
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:28:31 -0700 (PDT), Mel Rowing
mel.rowing@btinternet.com> wrote:
If you ever claimed to me that you had knifed someone in self defence
to a knife threat from that person then the first answer I would want
from you is how come you got your knife stroke in before he did?
If a person carries a knife for purposes of self defence and is
attacked by someon wielding a knife, they can bet that their attacker
is far better with a knife than they are
|
Why?
and has far less inhibition
| Quote: |
about using it (obviously, because that is just what they are doing).
|
Granted.
| Quote: |
So pulling out a knife to ward off a knife wielding attacker is not a
very good strategy. It has much lower survival value then legging it.
|
Quite possibly. Now, suppose legging it isn't an option. What do you do?
James
--
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/ |
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James Hammerton
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
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Svenne wrote:
| Quote: |
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:48:22 +0100, "William Black"
william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
"Svenne" <tvaerskaegg@aol.com> wrote in message
news:spup74l0p8u1am4qhofg05srhaprk4oolq@4ax.com...
If a person carries a knife for purposes of self defence and is
attacked by someon wielding a knife, they can bet that their attacker
is far better with a knife than they are and has far less inhibition
about using it (obviously, because that is just what they are doing).
That's an unfounded assumption.
The sort of person who pulls out a knife aggressively as a matter of
course
|
You've assumed that the attack uses knives as a matter of course.
has likely had more practice using it than someone who carries
| Quote: |
one just in case for defence. He'll have much less restraint about
using it, too. It would likely be a very uneven match.
|
Actually, knives are such that ISTM you could be experienced and/or
trained in using them and still have no guarantee that someone
inexperienced/untrained won't manage to cut you if they're similarly armed.
It's difficult to ward off/dodge a knife attack. The attacker has an
advantage even without being experience or trained, unless you've faced
off with knives drawn.
James
--
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/ |
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James Hammerton
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:10 am Post subject: Re: Knife Problem - Is it All About Prohibition? |
|
|
Mike Ross wrote:
| Quote: |
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:29:10 +0100, "Tom" <Not@chance.com> wrote:
snip
You right about having the right to carry any other knife (*with certain
restrictions*) if you have a good reason for doing so.
Criminal Justice Act, 1988. Section 139(1).
Offence: It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good
reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or
is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting
edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches.
*Some knives are classed as offensive weapons such as flick knives, gravity
knives and bladed weapons concealed within other objects (i.e. belt buckle
knives) and cannot be carried under any circumstances
I've heard this bandied about more than once and no-one has been able to quote
the relevant legislation.
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From:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/ukpga_19880033_en_14#pt11-pb3-l1g139
"139 Offence of having article with blade or point in public place
(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an
article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall
be guilty of an offence.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article
which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.
(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of
its blade exceeds 3 inches.
(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under
this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for
having the article with him in a public place.
(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it
shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this
section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a) for use at work;
(b) for religious reasons; or
(c) as part of any national costume.
(6) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be
liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the
standard scale.
(7) In this section “public place” includes any place to which at the
material time the public have or are permitted access, whether on
payment or otherwise.
( This section shall not have effect in relation to anything done
before it comes into force. "
Satisfied? You could have looked it up on the basis of the information
already posted.
James
--
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/ |
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