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Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude
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Gandalf Grey
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:43 pm    Post subject: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude Reply with quote

Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude

By Robert C. Koehler

Created Jul 10 2008 - 9:09am


"Civilian casualties have been a continuing issue in Afghanistan, and
President Karzai has rebuked American and NATO forces for what he has called
carelessness in their military operations."

This is the genteel, bloodless language of geopolitics, spoken by the Gray
Lady and the heads of state and makers of policy whom she serves. You
wouldn't know that "carelessness" referred to killing a bride (and
twenty-some guests) on her wedding day, except that the observation comes at
the end of the New York Times' account of our July 6 bombing of an Afghani
wedding, which followed a Fourth of July missile strike in that country --
look at the fireworks, Mom! -- that killed 15 innocent civilians. Careless
superpower indeed.

What you would never guess is that "carelessness" meant a deliberate U.S.
policy of waging the war on terror from the air. But that has been our
policy all along, from "shock and awe" and "mission accomplished" to "the
surge is working." It is undebated, unreported, unquestioned, this policy
conceived with the vacuous single-mindedness of serial killers. The death it
has caused has not been calculated and is perhaps incalculable, especially
when you factor in the time-bomb effects of depleted uranium and other
deadly substances that bombing spreads both locally and around the world.

To my mind, nothing, not even the torture we practice at Guantanamo and
throughout the war on terror gulag, exemplifies the disconnect between U.S.
policy and the American people like the sanitized horror of the air war.

When the Nazis dropped 50 tons of explosives on the Spanish city of Guernica
in 1937, the world called it barbaric. Today, such a pummeling of some
hapless Third World region is routine, transformed by an embedded and
co-opted media into "humdrum ordinariness," as Tom Engelhardt has pointed
out. (You'll recall, of course, that Colin Powell, when he lied before the
U.N. General Assembly about Iraqi WMD shortly before we invaded, had the
tapestry reproduction of Picasso's "Guernica" covered up to avoid any
awkward triggering of conscience.)

That we have lost control of our government, money-dominated and obsessed
with secrecy as it is, is less surprising to me than the extent to which we
have lost our watchdog media, which can't even rouse itself awake long
enough to spot the patterns in its own routine coverage of the war. Shall we
take a stroll down Memory Lane?

"Ooh, that's gotta hurt," I recall a colleague of mine saying back in
mid-March of '03, as the invasion got under way and the shock-and-awe
campaign played nonstop on the tube. The relentless air assault on Baghdad
killed untold Iraqis but utterly failed in its intended purpose of
"decapitating" the Saddam Hussein regime, killing not a single high
government official.

In April 2003, we got word that Hussein and his two sons were meeting in a
building in the Mansur district of Baghdad. Within 45 minutes, we flattened
the building with four high explosive bombs, creating a crater 40 feet deep
and killing an unknown number of people, but not Hussein or his sons.

"They found one boy's body on the roof of that house over there," an Iraqi
later told a reporter. "I heard that the father went out for ice cream and
wouldn't let his children come with him. When we came back, they were dead.
He must be dying of grief."

Shortly before Christmas 2003, USA Today, in a rare instance of independent
war coverage, published the results of its four-month investigation of
cluster bomb usage in the first months of the war.

"Although U.S. forces sought to limit what they call 'collateral damage' in
the Iraq campaign, they defied international criticism and used nearly
10,800 cluster weapons; their British allies used almost 2,200," reporter
Paul Wiseman wrote. Describing the "steel rain" that devastated the central
Iraq city of Al Hillah, he noted that images of the aftermath, "including
footage of a baby torn in half, were so gruesome that Western television
networks refused to air them."

Back to Afghanistan, where Taliban-hunting with bombs and missiles has been
commonplace. University of New Hampshire professor Marc Herold, who
monitored the early phases of the war, wrote in 2002 that "the documented
high level of civilian casualties" is caused by "the apparent willingness of
U.S. military strategists to fire missiles into, and drop bombs upon,
heavily populated areas of Afghanistan."

One example, from about a year ago: We bombed a school in eastern
Afghanistan; seven children died. A Pentagon spokesman explained: "If we
knew that there were children inside the building, there was no way that
that air strike would have occurred."

We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.



--
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of
political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107

"A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their
spells dissolve, and the people recovering their true sight, restore their
government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are
suffering deeply in spirit,
and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public
debt. But if the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have
patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning
back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at
stake."
-Thomas Jefferson
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Blackwater
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:07 am    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:43:34 -0700, "Gandalf Grey"
<valinor20@gmail.com> wrote:


Quote:

We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.

Then we'll be destroyed - Forever.

Can't win a war without being willing to make a mess,
most especially when the foe IS willing to inflict
endless amounts of 'collateral damage'.
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4117 Dead
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:46 am    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:07:40 GMT, bw@barrk.net (Blackwater) wrote:

Quote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:43:34 -0700, "Gandalf Grey"
valinor20@gmail.com> wrote:



We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.

Then we'll be destroyed - Forever.

Can't win a war without being willing to make a mess,
most especially when the foe IS willing to inflict
endless amounts of 'collateral damage'.


So we should slaughter innocent men, women, and children, because the
noisiest, most paranoid and most cowardly segment of our population
says that these people may have among them a rag-tag bunch of radicals
who might wish us harm because we have been hurting those people?
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Steve
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:42 am    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:46:58 -0700, 4117 Dead <zeppp@finestplanet.com>
wrote:

Quote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:07:40 GMT, bw@barrk.net (Blackwater) wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:43:34 -0700, "Gandalf Grey"
valinor20@gmail.com> wrote:



We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.

Then we'll be destroyed - Forever.

Can't win a war without being willing to make a mess,
most especially when the foe IS willing to inflict
endless amounts of 'collateral damage'.


So we should slaughter innocent men, women, and children, because the
noisiest, most paranoid and most cowardly segment of our population
says that these people may have among them a rag-tag bunch of radicals
who might wish us harm because we have been hurting those people?

we certainly shouldn't listen to cowardly, self serving, draft
dodging, slimeballs like Zepp....


"I was the draft dodger."
-- Zepp jamieson Sep 11, 12:08 pm
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/efabf601a6b8837c?hl=en&
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Jeffrey Turner
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

Blackwater wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:43:34 -0700, "Gandalf Grey"
valinor20@gmail.com> wrote:


We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.

Then we'll be destroyed - Forever.

Can't win a war without being willing to make a mess,
most especially when the foe IS willing to inflict
endless amounts of 'collateral damage'.

What would you know about winning a war? Where in your class at West
Point did you graduate? You're just another scaredy-cat right winger.

--Jeff

--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy
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Joe Irvin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

"4117 Dead" <zeppp@finestplanet.com> wrote in message
news:lnpc74devd785tbpfmjb5606iho4qu80b3@4ax.com...
Quote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:07:40 GMT, bw@barrk.net (Blackwater) wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:43:34 -0700, "Gandalf Grey"
valinor20@gmail.com> wrote:



We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.

Then we'll be destroyed - Forever.

Can't win a war without being willing to make a mess,
most especially when the foe IS willing to inflict
endless amounts of 'collateral damage'.


So we should slaughter innocent men, women, and children, because the
noisiest, most paranoid and most cowardly segment of our population
says that these people may have among them a rag-tag bunch of radicals
who might wish us harm because we have been hurting those people?

No, Mr Blackwater was just recognizing a fact that in war civilians are
killed. Civilians have been killed in every war that the US has fought.
These rag tag bunch of radicals have been killing Americans for the last 25
+ years ... I mean targeting 'innocent, men, women and children'. How about
Pan Am Flt 103 over Lockerbie, TWA Flt 847 killing an unarmed US Navy
serviceman, and dumping his body on the tarmac, WTC I and II. Any 'innocent
men, women and children' killed then? ... its only wrong when the US does
it. Bro, this 'rag tag bunch' of Islamic jihadist are barbarians and mean
business. We ignore them at our own peril ... and not just the US ... take
the Islamic jihadist out of the world and it becomes a more peaceful place.
The people you call 'cowardly' recognize how barberic these Islamic jihadist
are. How do you suggest we deal with these Islamic jihadist? ... more talk?
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Joe Irvin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:qbmdnQsw66YnQevVnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@posted.localnet...
Quote:
Blackwater wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:43:34 -0700, "Gandalf Grey"
valinor20@gmail.com> wrote:


We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.

Then we'll be destroyed - Forever. Can't win a war without being
willing to make a mess,
most especially when the foe IS willing to inflict
endless amounts of 'collateral damage'.

What would you know about winning a war? Where in your class at West
Point did you graduate? You're just another scaredy-cat right winger.

One doesn't have to be a graduate of West Point to know when people are
trying to kill you ... the history of the last 25+ years tells shows that.
Look around the world its Islamic jihadist killing other Muslims or people
of other religions, or just people who don't want to convert to Islam. The
Islamic jihadist kill left wingers as easy as they kill right wingers. Wake
up.
Quote:

--Jeff

--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy
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Jeffrey Turner
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:07 am    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

Joe Irvin wrote:
Quote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Blackwater wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:43:34 -0700, "Gandalf Grey"
valinor20@gmail.com> wrote:



We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.

Then we'll be destroyed - Forever. Can't win a war without being
willing to make a mess,
most especially when the foe IS willing to inflict
endless amounts of 'collateral damage'.

What would you know about winning a war? Where in your class at West
Point did you graduate? You're just another scaredy-cat right winger.

One doesn't have to be a graduate of West Point to know when people are
trying to kill you

Hiding under your covers, are you?

Quote:
... the history of the last 25+ years tells shows that.
Look around the world its Islamic jihadist killing other Muslims or people
of other religions, or just people who don't want to convert to Islam. The
Islamic jihadist kill left wingers as easy as they kill right wingers. Wake
up.

Wake up? You're living in a nightmare.

--Jeff

--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy
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Joe Irvin
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:59 am    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:zMidnQc6xNQCeurVnZ2dnUVZ_qDinZ2d@posted.localnet...
Quote:
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Blackwater wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:43:34 -0700, "Gandalf Grey"
valinor20@gmail.com> wrote:



We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all
for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this
is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth
about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.

Then we'll be destroyed - Forever. Can't win a war without being
willing to make a mess,
most especially when the foe IS willing to inflict
endless amounts of 'collateral damage'.

What would you know about winning a war? Where in your class at West
Point did you graduate? You're just another scaredy-cat right winger.

One doesn't have to be a graduate of West Point to know when people are
trying to kill you

Hiding under your covers, are you?

Nope, Living in the real world.

Quote:
... the history of the last 25+ years tells shows that. Look around the
world its Islamic jihadist killing other Muslims or people of other
religions, or just people who don't want to convert to Islam. The
Islamic jihadist kill left wingers as easy as they kill right wingers.
Wake up.

Wake up? You're living in a nightmare.

You mean the 25+ years I mentioned above never happened??? The Islamic
jihadist aim is to kill innocent people. Look around the world its Islam
the religion of peace thats killing innocent people ... thats the nightmare,
bro and you cannot see it before your eyes.
Quote:

--Jeff

--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy
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Guest






PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:17 am    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

On Jul 10, 12:07 pm, b...@barrk.net (Blackwater) wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:43:34 -0700, "Gandalf Grey"

valino...@gmail.com> wrote:

We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.

   Then we'll be destroyed - Forever.

   Can't win a war without being willing to make a mess,
   most especially when the foe IS willing to inflict
   endless amounts of 'collateral damage'.

Then, frankly, they need to come over here and start killing people
like me who they probably already view as terrorists then.

You can't win a war on terror with a free country.

Mike
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Gary DeWaay
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

In article <xY2dnT6s99W9BerV4p2dnAA@comporium.net>, ji3486@sccoast.net
Joe Irvin says...


Quote:
We ignore them at our own peril ... and not just the US ... take
the Islamic jihadist out of the world and it becomes a more peaceful place.



Yippee!

Oh wait...

How do you identify these people? Or are you just suggesting we kill
all Islamic people?
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Tom Sr.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

On Jul 10, 1:43 pm, "Gandalf Grey" <valino...@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude

That's a *wide-stance* moral latitude for Republicans.

-Tom Sr.
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Jeffrey Turner
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

Joe Irvin wrote:
Quote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Blackwater wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:43:34 -0700, "Gandalf Grey"
valinor20@gmail.com> wrote:


We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all
for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this
is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth
about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.

Then we'll be destroyed - Forever. Can't win a war without being
willing to make a mess,
most especially when the foe IS willing to inflict
endless amounts of 'collateral damage'.

What would you know about winning a war? Where in your class at West
Point did you graduate? You're just another scaredy-cat right winger.

One doesn't have to be a graduate of West Point to know when people are
trying to kill you

Hiding under your covers, are you?

Nope, Living in the real world.

"Terrists!" Oooh, he jumped back under the covers again.

Quote:
... the history of the last 25+ years tells shows that. Look around the
world its Islamic jihadist killing other Muslims or people of other
religions, or just people who don't want to convert to Islam. The
Islamic jihadist kill left wingers as easy as they kill right wingers.
Wake up.

Wake up? You're living in a nightmare.

You mean the 25+ years I mentioned above never happened??? The Islamic
jihadist aim is to kill innocent people. Look around the world its Islam
the religion of peace thats killing innocent people ... thats the nightmare,
bro and you cannot see it before your eyes.

Twenty five years ago the CIA was arming the jihadis and Reagan was
calling them "freedom fighters." The Americans just killed another 40
innocent people at a wedding in Afghanistan. They are worse than the
jihadis.

--Jeff

--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy
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Joe Irvin
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

"Gary DeWaay" <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.22e208b6547d49ea9896f5@news.midco.net...
Quote:
In article <xY2dnT6s99W9BerV4p2dnAA@comporium.net>, ji3486@sccoast.net
Joe Irvin says...


We ignore them at our own peril ... and not just the US ... take
the Islamic jihadist out of the world and it becomes a more peaceful
place.



Yippee!

Oh wait...

How do you identify these people? Or are you just suggesting we kill
all Islamic people?

They are the violent ones, almost always Muslims, that are trying to kill
people all over the world ... Africa, Asia, Europe etc.

How do you identify rapists? Or are you just suggesting that we kill all
men?
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Joe Irvin
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit Reply with quote

"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:RdednbgK94n-JeXVnZ2dnUVZ_qTinZ2d@posted.localnet...
Quote:
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Blackwater wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:43:34 -0700, "Gandalf Grey"
valinor20@gmail.com> wrote:


We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has
limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all
for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But
this is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth
about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.

Then we'll be destroyed - Forever. Can't win a war without being
willing to make a mess,
most especially when the foe IS willing to inflict
endless amounts of 'collateral damage'.

What would you know about winning a war? Where in your class at West
Point did you graduate? You're just another scaredy-cat right winger.

One doesn't have to be a graduate of West Point to know when people are
trying to kill you

Hiding under your covers, are you?

Nope, Living in the real world.

"Terrists!" Oooh, he jumped back under the covers again.

You've not made it to the real world I see.

Quote:
... the history of the last 25+ years tells shows that. Look around the
world its Islamic jihadist killing other Muslims or people of other
religions, or just people who don't want to convert to Islam. The
Islamic jihadist kill left wingers as easy as they kill right wingers.
Wake up.

Wake up? You're living in a nightmare.

You mean the 25+ years I mentioned above never happened??? The Islamic
jihadist aim is to kill innocent people. Look around the world its Islam
the religion of peace thats killing innocent people ... thats the
nightmare, bro and you cannot see it before your eyes.

Twenty five years ago the CIA was arming the jihadis and Reagan was
calling them "freedom fighters."

About 60+ years ago Russia was an ally and Germany and Italy were enemies of
the US ... foreign policy is fluid and is always subject to change, but you
knew that.

The Americans just killed another 40
Quote:
innocent people at a wedding in Afghanistan. They are worse than the
jihadis.

It was probably an accident ... The US military are not targeting 'innocent
people' in Afghanistan or Iraq. To make a statement that Americans 'are
worse than jihadis' its obvious that you have lost touch with reality.
Islamic jihadist target 'innocent people,' you don't know that and put the
US military on the same moral scale as jihadists? Does the American
military do this: "RABAT, Morocco - Moroccan security forces foiled a
terrorist plot to attack tourists this summer, in what has become a
"near-daily" struggle to root out extremist cells increasingly linked to
al-Qaida in Iraq, a top security official said Friday."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080711/ap_on_re_af/morocco_terror_interview_1
Is targeting innocent people for death the same morally as accidentally
killing innocent people in a war? Muslim jihadist do this stuff not just in
Afghanistan and Iraq but all over the world.

Quote:

--Jeff

--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy
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