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Jeffrey Turner
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 Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
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Joe Irvin wrote:
| Quote: |
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:4uadnXIo0eVxzeDVnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@posted.localnet...
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:e9GdnZ3WbozaL-HVnZ2dnUVZ_v_inZ2d@posted.localnet...
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:0L6dnT0pBLJqPubVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@posted.localnet...
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:MM6dnZoYCoLl0ufVnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@posted.localnet...
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
4114 Dead wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:08:34 -0400, "Joe Irvin"
ji3486@sccoast.net
wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Joe Irvin wrote:
... the history of the last 25+ years tells shows that. Look
around the world its Islamic jihadist killing other Muslims
or people of other religions, or just people who don't want
to convert to Islam. The Islamic jihadist kill left wingers
as easy as they kill right wingers. Wake up.
Wake up? You're living in a nightmare.
You mean the 25+ years I mentioned above never happened??? The
Islamic jihadist aim is to kill innocent people. Look around
the world its Islam the religion of peace thats killing
innocent people ... thats the nightmare, bro and you cannot see
it before your eyes.
Twenty five years ago the CIA was arming the jihadis and Reagan
was
calling them "freedom fighters."
About 60+ years ago Russia was an ally and Germany and Italy were
enemies of the US ... foreign policy is fluid and is always
subject to change, but you knew that.
The Americans just killed another 40
innocent people at a wedding in Afghanistan. They are worse
than the
jihadis.
It was probably an accident ...
We'll just drop bombs on your town and send an "oops, sorry" to
your
next of kin, OK? I'm sure you feel all warm and fuzzy about that.
Its not what I feel 'warm and fuzzy' about. Its about why you snip
my response and didn't answer the questions I asked: "Islamic
jihadist target 'innocent people,' you don't know that and put the
US military on the same moral scale as jihadists? " and "Is
targeting innocent people for death the same morally as accidentally
killing innocent people in a war? " These are two reasonable
questions. Why can't you respond?
Those deaths weren't accidents. When you decide to go to war, you
decide that you will kill some number of innocents.
I was taking war as a given. That is true innocent people are killed
in war. So I may reason from what you are saying that we should NOT
go to war because innocent people may get killed? So Islamic
jihadists should have there way with us because if we respond we may
kill innocent people, no matter how many innocent people they are
killing. What you seem to be missing is that although the US
sometimes kills innocent people in this war against the Islamic
jihadists they DO NOT target innocent people.
Of course they do. They even target their own people, like Pat
Tillman.
So you are telling me that American military fire power was directed
knowingly on the American military personnel on purpose? Sir have you
ever heard of 'friendly fire accidents', do you know what the term
friendly fire means? You seem to rather believe a lie when the truth is
in front of you fact. This was in the all the media. I can't help you
but hear is a definition, maybe you can figure it out.
"Discharge of a military weapon that injures or kills a member of one's
own armed forces or an ally. Modern circumlocution for attacks on
soldiers by their own side, a decidedly unfriendly act but a
well-established reality of war. It even occurred in hand-to-hand combat
because men were not recognized as being friendly or because, in the
press of battle, a weapon drawn back to strike a foe might hit a friend
instead."
You get kids scared, give them weapons and they start shooting wildly
without thinking when something happens. So they kill their comrades
and they kill civilians because you put them in this ridiculos
Sir you made the accusation that that US troops murderd innocent men and
women just like the Mulsim jihadists and used Pat Tillman as an example.
I proved you incorrect, that Pat was accidentally killed by friendly fire
and not murdered. You can rave on all you want.
They were looking right at him and he was waving in an American manner.
The cowardly Americans always claim they didn't mean to kill innocents,
but their "shoot first and ask questions later" habit regularly results
in large numbers of civilian and friendly deaths.
It was a friendly fire accident, get over it. Believe what you like but it
was a friendly fire accident. Its not unusual, it happens most wars. You
seem to have trouble assimilating facts and drawing reasonable conclusions.
Again our military doesn't murder innocent people and if they do they are
held accountable for it.
quote
The Haditha killings (also called the Haditha incident or the Haditha
massacre) refers to the incident where 24 Iraqi men, women and children
were killed on November 19, 2005 in Haditha, a city in the western Iraq
province of Al Anbar. At least 15 of those killed were noncombatant
civilians and all were killed by a group of United States Marines[1]. It
has been alleged that the killings were retribution for the attack on a
convoy of United States Marines with an improvised explosive device that
killed Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas.[2]
As of June 17, 2008, six defendants had their cases dropped and one was
found not guilty. The exception is SSgt. Wuterich, whose trial date has
been postponed.[13]
Didn't you read what I wrote above. I'll quote it: "Again our military
doesn't murder innocent people and if they do they are held accountable for
it." They were being held accountable. Looks like the case is weak though
... but the point you should carry away is that the US military is held
accountable if the commit crimes. Wonder if Congressman Murtha will be sued
for accusing these good Marines of "cold blooded murder" ... Congressmen are
usually immune from law suits and they are if its on the 'floor', I think.
If you are really interested about what happened at Haditha you might want
to read this:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/06/haditha_is_mcgirk_the_new_mary.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings
Oh yeah, they were really held accountable.
Like I said above, you have trouble assimilating facts and drawing
reasonable conclusions ... just because, what is it 7, of them either got
their charges dismissed or found not guilty? Thats going thru the the
accountability process, bro.
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God you're fucking dense. Having mock trials - if you have trials at
all - isn't holding people accountable. I suppose all those Iraqis were
killed by ghosts, eh?
| Quote: |
Did the Muslim jihadists who cut off innocent
peoples heads on TV got thru an accountability process ... that doesn't seem
to bother you. I stand by what I said ... the US military doesn't murder
but if they do they are held accountable. I know that doesn't register with
you.
|
Hey, I'll come shoot up your next family reunion for that kind of
"accountability."
| Quote: |
I never denied that innocent people were killed by the US as collateral
damage or mistake. I put no US troops in 'ridiculous situations' ... its
a tactic of the Muslim jihadist cowardly thugs do ... use innocent
men,women and children as shields and to hide behind, and shoot from
hospitals/schools/mosques. Its always the fault of the US isn't it Mr
Turner?
Collateral damage implies that you were actually attacking the enemy at
the time. The Americans bomb houses where there are no enemy. Every
bomb they dropped on Baghdad during "Shock and Awe" was supposedly
intended to kill Saddam Hussein, but none even came close. The
Americans killed without knowing or caring who they were killing.
You cannot process information. If the military target is suppose to be at
a certain point/points one has to attack those points. This is true of all
armed forces, not just the US. If we had to make sure there were no
civilians we would never attack. The Muslim jihadists know the US military
doesn't like to kill innocent people (they use this to their advantage
hiding behind innocent people) and they use them as shields. This isn't a
hard concept to understand.
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The U.S. military has no compunction about killing civilians, as we've
seen again and again. But if I wear a blindfold when I shoot up your
family reunion and apologize afterwards that'll be OK with you, right?
| Quote: |
Those cowardly thugs whose nation the U.S. invaded. You are the
cowardly one, hiding under your covers. The U.S. has been bent on total
military domination of the world for quite some time now, so it is their
fault.
If it is true as you say that the US is 'bent on total military domination
of the world' why haven't they started, say in Mexico and Canada and then
this whole hemisphere ... plenty of oil in Canada/Mexico/Venezuela? Seems
silly to me to start a military domination from the middle east ... how
about you, what do you think?
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NAFTA makes sure that Canada and Mexico have to sell their oil to the
U.S. Iraq's oil had to be secured by other means.
| Quote: |
http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html
This web site is a hoot. Dr Grossman must be dean of the clown college. We
had to reconquer Chicago and then the US????
|
The first response of the U.S. to just about anything is to send in the
troops.
| Quote: |
situation. Why were they there? Looking for people who kill innocents.
Yes, looking for people who kill the innocent and the US military. The
Muslim jihadist are the ones that wonder into areas where there are many
innocent people and blowing themselves up killing as many innocent as
possible, its not the US military.
The U.S. military drops 500 pound bombs onto Iraqi houses. The U.S.
military let the jihadists into Iraq. The U.S. kills all sorts of
foreigners when it wants their oil or other resources, and doesn't
really care who has to die.
Read above ... I know you believe the US is the only country in the world
that uses oil/resources.
|
That steals them at the point of a Bradley fighting vehicle.
| Quote: |
So now you just get them a mirror. But at least they aren't killing
scared innocent Americans like Joe Irvin, so they must be morally
superior, like Joe hisself.
I never claimed moral superiority. I do know the difference between the
murder of innocent people and the accidental killing of innocent people.
Sir you do not, and that is sad.
You think that you can go to someone's family and say, "Oops, I didn't
mean to kill your mother" and that makes it all better.
Still don't get it, I'll repeat: "I never claimed moral superiority. I do
know the difference between the murder of innocent people and the
accidental killing of innocent people. Sir you do not, and that is sad."
|
Of course you claim moral superiority. That's what your whole dichotomy
is about. You're no better than the jihadis. You kill innocents.
| Quote: |
And there were no "Islamic jihadists" in Iraq.
Not at first, but I never said our reason for going into Iraq was to
hunt/kill Islamic jihadists. I don't know where these ideas come from?
America has a million and one excuses for killing innocent people
around the world.
How do you know this. Even if you are correct until they do the actual
deed it means nothing. But I see the hatred you have for your country to
say such a thing about it. There are things I dislike about our country
but I don't have a hatred for it.
But if I did believe what you said I would also hate my country, it would
deserve hatred.
America is a violent country, and kills foreigners and its own citizens.
There were 152 people executed just by the state of Texas, just during
Bush's terms as governor. Many of them were innocent or had extenuating
circumstances. Several were mentally retarded. The U.S. had excuses
for killing all of them. And then there are the foreigners.
Your mind is wondering Mr Turner ... you are off topic. Save that for
another thread.
|
It's all about how America is so good at killing innocents.
| Quote: |
Now the Islamic jihadist target innocent people ... there is a
difference ... can you see it. I know the results are the same,
death, but there is a difference. What you should ask yourself is
which kind of govt you would rather live under.
In the U.S., the Christian fundamentalists are more likely to control
the gov't than the Islamic fundamentalists.
Could you name the 'Christian fundamentalist' Prez candidates running in
the last 20 years? Can you name any Congressmen of either party that
are running as a 'Christian fundamentalists'? Even if they were
Christian fundamentalists running why shouldn't they be allowed to run?
Are you familiar with the Constitution? ... read the 1st amendment.
Another lie that you had rather believe than the truth.
So why are you so scared of Islamic fundamentalists?
Answer my question ... who are the Christian fundamentalists candidates
or the Christian fundamentalists in Congress? I'm not scared of the
Islamic fundamentalists, it the Islamic jihadist that are the problem in
the world.
Do you know any Islamic jihadists? Any in your city? How are they so
dangerous?
I don't know any Islamic jihadists personally. Where I was living, about 5
miles from my house some Muslim Jihadist flew a passenger aircraft into the
Pentagon. That is one reason, 'they are so dangerous.' I don't have to
have a personal experience to know how dangerous they are. Anyone who can
think and look back over the past 20+ years can see how dangerous the Muslim
Jihadists are. I'm only sorry that your brain cannot assimilate this
material, if it could you may understand the danger. Its not just a danger
to the US its a danger to the world.
|
How many people in your neighborhood have been killed by Americans in
cars? Probably more than died in the Pentagon. The U.S. military is a
danger to the world - to anyone who doesn't do what the White House
wants them to do.
| Quote: |
I know the U.S. has sent bombers half way around the world
to kill innocents, but I haven't seen anywhere near as much death caused
by your Islamic jihadists. More Americans die in a month on the roads
of America than died in the attacks of 9/11. More get killed by
handguns every year. But you are scared of a minor nuisance.
Its not a 'minor nuisance' and not just a world problem ... its a world
problem. "Three British Muslims accused of plotting to blow up
transatlantic planes flying out of Heathrow with liquid bombs admitted today
attempting to cause explosions."
|
Crime is a worldwide problem. Only the idiot Americans take "war on
crime" literally.
| Quote: |
And Bush
resolved Osama bin Laden's main complaint by removing American troops
from Saudi Arabia. If he'd done it two years sooner, 9/11 probably
wouldn't have happened.
So we should let Osama make our foreign policy? I'm sure we would not of
had a problem with Saddam if we ignored his blowing off the cease fire
agreement and his invasion of Kuwait. Do you every think Mr Turner? Do you
ever read history?
|
More than you do. All you do is repeat whatever jingoistic nonsense
comes out of the White House and Fox.
| Quote: |
Later that week he declared "Mission
Accomplished," but whose mission?
It was the mission of the air craft carrier USS Abe Lincoln, they had
completed a tour. It, I think it was, to mark the end of major military
combat operations in Iraq, which proved inaccurate ... what you probably
call "Bus lied".
|
It was Osama's mission. The American troops were gone from Saudi
Arabia. There were hundreds of other Bush lies.
| Quote: |
But I understand that you
are in such fear that you can't think straight.
I don't believe lies when the truth is in front of me.
The truth is rarely put right in front of you.
Well, try and learn the definition between murder and accidental killing.
I've never met anyone that didn't realize there was a difference. I
apologize you just didn't recognize the truth.
Going halfway around the world to kill someone isn't an accident.
Not that the U.S. need bother go that far.
True, killing someone happens everyday in the US.
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Why should foreigners be the only targets when its so much fun to kill
people?
| Quote: |
Ninety percent of
the dead in recent wars have been civilians, and the U.S. gets into
wars
regularly.
So from that I take if there was no US in the world it would be a more
peaceful place? We are warmongers and shouldn't be allowed to exist.
The U.S. is often too quick to resort to war, but when you're spending
half a trillion dollars a year on war-making I guess you've got to do
something to use up your weapons inventory.
You should get familiar with US History ... the US was unprepared for
both WWI and WWII. It took month for the US to spool up for Gulf War I.
Months to put a full invasion force halfway around the world? Oooh.
And it didn't take that long to prepare for the other two wars either.
Not to mention the dozens of other wars the U.S. has fought in the last
century.
The point was, that the US is basically a peaceful nation, but because of
its standing (military/economic) power in the world it is drawn into
conflicts. There have been shortcomings in the 20th century but measued
against other countries the US didn't exploit other countries.
It's not. It hasn't spent more than a couple years (if that) in the
last century either not at war or not occupying another country.
Often several of each. And that doesn't even count the covert ops by
proxy armies and military backing of foreign oppression.
The world is a dangerous place ... many times countries ask for US troops
... other times treaty obligatons require troops ... the hostages in, wasn't
it Columbia that were released ... Columbia got training from the US
military.
|
Yes, the U.S. trains (and arms) the paramilitaries that kill teachers
and trade unionists in Columbia. The hostages were rescued either by a
ruse or a ransom - but not by military might.
| Quote: |
US troops in Korea and Europe are there from the wars. After
both of these war the particular countries ask for US troops to remain.
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And Iraq is asking them to leave.
--Jeff
| Quote: |
And the US was unparpared for previous wars. Example WWII. "Meanwhile,
the US had embarked on a mobilization of human, physical, and financial
resources without precedent in history. All the inhibitions,
frustrations, and restraints of the Depression years vanished virtually
overnight. Within a single year the number of tanks built in America had
been raised to over 24,000 and planes to over 48,000." A History of the
American People" Paul Johnson. I might also add that it takes or it use
to take 8 weeks just to go thru basic training. Basic training was
probably shortend in WWII because time was important. Ships are not built
in a few weeks ... our Pacific fleet was almost destroyed at Pearl and
had to be replaced. I stand by what I said.
There were a lot of cowardly isolationist right-wingers before WWII, and
still others who had Nazi sympathies. It was hard to get authorization
for a military build-up given right-wing political opposition.
My point was that the US was and has a history of being unprepared for war,
which refuted your point. The rest of what you say may/may not be true ...
OK?
With plenty more planned. So we can expect the Americans to
be killing civilians for many years to come. And a lot more than the
3000 Americans who died on 9/11.
So it would be ok if the US went to war didn't kill any more people
than 3000. That is the cut off point ... go to war until you reach
the 3000 death limit and stop. We let our enemies set the limits of
the number of deaths? May I ask if you are and Ivy League College
Professor?
You are in a panic because 3,000 Americans got killed on 9/11.
Why don't you answer the questions I asked rather than to try and Dr
Phil me? I'm not in a panic about anything. You think recognizing a
problem is panic ... its not, its recognizing reality which you seem to
have taken leave of.
You're scared out of your wits.
No, not scared, vigilant. I have a nice life in probably the best
country in the world. I support the war against Muslim jihadist. I
don't turn a blind eye to people who want to destroy Western civilizaton
and replace it with a bunch of Muslim jihadist thugs that want to kill,
make subservient, or convert to Islam. Who cannot even get along among
themselves.
You don't support the war, neither with your body nor with your taxes.
If you mean by with my body that I'm serving in the military, correct I am
not in the military right now. I pay taxes that go toward retiring the debt
for any borrowing for the war and wars that have happened in the past.
The money is all being borrowed. And the American thugs have a record
for killing that leaves the jihadis in the dust.
So according to your way of thinking its the number of people that are kill
rather than for the reasons they are killed? This is fuzzy thinking Mr
Turner. Implying the American military military are thugs is also fuzzy
thinking.
Mr Turner, you have surrendered your ability to think to the ideology you
subscribe to. A good example of this is above where you give an example to
refute me by using the Haditha incident to disprove my assertation that the
US military didn't murder, that any crimes they committed they were held
accountable. Now whether all the Marines were guilty or innocent was
immaterial to the argument. The incident proved my point that the US
military was held accountable. May I say respectfully, this makes you look
like a buffoon. Start thinking for yourself, don't let someone do it for
you.
--Jeff
--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy
|
--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy |
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Jeffrey Turner
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
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Joe Irvin wrote:
| Quote: |
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:4uadnXIo0eVxzeDVnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@posted.localnet...
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:e9GdnZ3WbozaL-HVnZ2dnUVZ_v_inZ2d@posted.localnet...
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:0L6dnT0pBLJqPubVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@posted.localnet...
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:MM6dnZoYCoLl0ufVnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@posted.localnet...
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
4114 Dead wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:08:34 -0400, "Joe Irvin"
ji3486@sccoast.net
wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Joe Irvin wrote:
With plenty more planned. So we can expect the Americans to
be killing civilians for many years to come. And a lot more than the
3000 Americans who died on 9/11.
So it would be ok if the US went to war didn't kill any more people
than 3000. That is the cut off point ... go to war until you reach
the 3000 death limit and stop. We let our enemies set the limits of
the number of deaths? May I ask if you are and Ivy League College
Professor?
You are in a panic because 3,000 Americans got killed on 9/11.
Why don't you answer the questions I asked rather than to try and Dr
Phil me? I'm not in a panic about anything. You think recognizing a
problem is panic ... its not, its recognizing reality which you seem to
have taken leave of.
You're scared out of your wits.
No, not scared, vigilant. I have a nice life in probably the best
country in the world. I support the war against Muslim jihadist. I
don't turn a blind eye to people who want to destroy Western civilizaton
and replace it with a bunch of Muslim jihadist thugs that want to kill,
make subservient, or convert to Islam. Who cannot even get along among
themselves.
You don't support the war, neither with your body nor with your taxes.
If you mean by with my body that I'm serving in the military, correct I am
not in the military right now. I pay taxes that go toward retiring the debt
for any borrowing for the war and wars that have happened in the past.
|
No debt has been retired lately. The wars in south Asia are being
fought on borrowed money.
| Quote: |
The money is all being borrowed. And the American thugs have a record
for killing that leaves the jihadis in the dust.
So according to your way of thinking its the number of people that are kill
rather than for the reasons they are killed? This is fuzzy thinking Mr
Turner. Implying the American military military are thugs is also fuzzy
thinking.
|
The jihadis have their political goals as much as the U.S. has its
goals. The Pentagon wasn't innocent civilians. So your claim that
they only kill innocents to kill innocents is faulty.
| Quote: |
Mr Turner, you have surrendered your ability to think to the ideology you
subscribe to. A good example of this is above where you give an example to
refute me by using the Haditha incident to disprove my assertation that the
US military didn't murder, that any crimes they committed they were held
accountable. Now whether all the Marines were guilty or innocent was
immaterial to the argument.
|
None of them were guilty? None of them murdered anyone? The bullets
just had a life of their own? No. There was no accountability.
| Quote: |
The incident proved my point that the US
military was held accountable. May I say respectfully, this makes you look
like a buffoon. Start thinking for yourself, don't let someone do it for
you.
|
That's irony. The Bush administration hasn't held anyone accountable
for anything in seven and a half years. And you should try to think
for yourself and not let Bill O'Reilly do it for you.
--Jeff
--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy |
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Steve
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
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On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:19:49 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
<jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Of course you claim moral superiority.
|
well, yes actually, I do claim moral superiority over you, Turner..
intellectual superiority too... |
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Jeffrey Turner
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
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Steve wrote:
| Quote: |
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:19:49 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Of course you claim moral superiority.
well, yes actually, I do claim moral superiority over you, Turner..
intellectual superiority too...
|
Like I should be impressed by your hot air.
--Jeff
--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
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On Jul 10, 1:43 pm, "Gandalf Grey" <valino...@gmail.com> wrote:
Next time the cops pick me up I'm going to say, "I'm not doing
anything wrong, officer. Just operating with a wide moral latitude." |
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znuybv
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
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On Jul 17, 11:27 am, patmpow...@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 10, 1:43 pm, "Gandalf Grey" <valino...@gmail.com> wrote:
Next time the cops pick me up I'm going to say, "I'm not doing
anything wrong, officer. Just operating with a wide moral latitude."
|
Works at Peace Rallies. |
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