| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Guest
|
 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
 |
|
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:49:18 -0700 (PDT), Jim Austin <bja@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Fear does not lead to resistance of aggression. Fear leads to
cowering, groveling, bowing before aggressors. Fear leads to ...
|
You're licking Bush's jackboots as he steals from you, bushworshipper.
"Sarah, if the American people had ever known the truth
about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would
be chased down in the streets and lynched."
-George H. W. "Poppy" Bush, spoken in an interview with
Sarah McClendon, June 1992
http://chicago.indymedia.org/newswire/display/61956/index.php |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Jim Austin
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
On Jul 14, 11:45 am, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Jim Austin wrote:
On Jul 13, 5:23 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
Jim Austin wrote:
On Jul 10, 10:43 am, "Gandalf Grey" <valino...@gmail.com> wrote:
Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude
By Robert C. Koehler
Created Jul 10 2008 - 9:09am
"Civilian casualties have been a continuing issue in Afghanistan, and
President Karzai has rebuked American and NATO forces for what he has called
carelessness in their military operations."
This is the genteel, bloodless language of geopolitics, spoken by the Gray
Lady and the heads of state and makers of policy whom she serves. You
wouldn't know that "carelessness" referred to killing a bride (and
twenty-some guests) on her wedding day, except that the observation comes at
the end of the New York Times' account of our July 6 bombing of an Afghani
wedding, which followed a Fourth of July missile strike in that country --
look at the fireworks, Mom! -- that killed 15 innocent civilians. Careless
superpower indeed.
What you would never guess is that "carelessness" meant a deliberate U.S.
policy of waging the war on terror from the air. But that has been our
policy all along, from "shock and awe" and "mission accomplished" to "the
surge is working." It is undebated, unreported, unquestioned, this policy
conceived with the vacuous single-mindedness of serial killers. The death it
has caused has not been calculated and is perhaps incalculable, especially
when you factor in the time-bomb effects of depleted uranium and other
deadly substances that bombing spreads both locally and around the world.
To my mind, nothing, not even the torture we practice at Guantanamo and
throughout the war on terror gulag, exemplifies the disconnect between U.S.
policy and the American people like the sanitized horror of the air war.
When the Nazis dropped 50 tons of explosives on the Spanish city of Guernica
in 1937, the world called it barbaric. Today, such a pummeling of some
hapless Third World region is routine, transformed by an embedded and
co-opted media into "humdrum ordinariness," as Tom Engelhardt has pointed
out. (You'll recall, of course, that Colin Powell, when he lied before the
U.N. General Assembly about Iraqi WMD shortly before we invaded, had the
tapestry reproduction of Picasso's "Guernica" covered up to avoid any
awkward triggering of conscience.)
That we have lost control of our government, money-dominated and obsessed
with secrecy as it is, is less surprising to me than the extent to which we
have lost our watchdog media, which can't even rouse itself awake long
enough to spot the patterns in its own routine coverage of the war. Shall we
take a stroll down Memory Lane?
"Ooh, that's gotta hurt," I recall a colleague of mine saying back in
mid-March of '03, as the invasion got under way and the shock-and-awe
campaign played nonstop on the tube. The relentless air assault on Baghdad
killed untold Iraqis but utterly failed in its intended purpose of
"decapitating" the Saddam Hussein regime, killing not a single high
government official.
In April 2003, we got word that Hussein and his two sons were meeting in a
building in the Mansur district of Baghdad. Within 45 minutes, we flattened
the building with four high explosive bombs, creating a crater 40 feet deep
and killing an unknown number of people, but not Hussein or his sons.
"They found one boy's body on the roof of that house over there," an Iraqi
later told a reporter. "I heard that the father went out for ice cream and
wouldn't let his children come with him. When we came back, they were dead.
He must be dying of grief."
Shortly before Christmas 2003, USA Today, in a rare instance of independent
war coverage, published the results of its four-month investigation of
cluster bomb usage in the first months of the war.
"Although U.S. forces sought to limit what they call 'collateral damage' in
the Iraq campaign, they defied international criticism and used nearly
10,800 cluster weapons; their British allies used almost 2,200," reporter
Paul Wiseman wrote. Describing the "steel rain" that devastated the central
Iraq city of Al Hillah, he noted that images of the aftermath, "including
footage of a baby torn in half, were so gruesome that Western television
networks refused to air them."
Back to Afghanistan, where Taliban-hunting with bombs and missiles has been
commonplace. University of New Hampshire professor Marc Herold, who
monitored the early phases of the war, wrote in 2002 that "the documented
high level of civilian casualties" is caused by "the apparent willingness of
U.S. military strategists to fire missiles into, and drop bombs upon,
heavily populated areas of Afghanistan."
One example, from about a year ago: We bombed a school in eastern
Afghanistan; seven children died. A Pentagon spokesman explained: "If we
knew that there were children inside the building, there was no way that
that air strike would have occurred."
We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.
The morality urged on us here is the morality of pacifism which is the
denial of the right of self defense. Pacifists say they're against all
violence, but end up holding that violence should be the sole
prerogative of aggressors.
Thus pacifists continually make a common cause with aggressors
including Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jung Il, Saddam Hussein,
Ossama Bin Ladin, etc.
The statement remains unchallenged, uncontested, undenied.
The statement is nonsense. The U.S. has made common cause with all
except Hitler and Kim.
|
No. As a historical record, pacifists have made common causes with
aggressors, especially the ones listed.
| Quote: |
Instead,
this dirtbag resorts to insults, indicating his own acknowledgment
that the statement is true.
Whine on.
|
More projection. This spewing of malice has the definite flavor of
long, petulant whine.
| Quote: |
And you hide under the covers at the sign of danger. You're just
another scared little right-winger.
Fear does not lead to resistance of aggression. Fear leads to
cowering, groveling, bowing before aggressors. Fear leads to liberal/
pacifist policies.
No, you are afraid.
|
Not me. I'm not the one advocating liberal/pacifist policies.
| Quote: |
There was no aggression for you to resist.
|
The U.S. doesn't have to wait for terrorists to strike me personally
in order to have the right to resist terrorism.
| Quote: |
And you are home under your covers, quivering.
|
It is those under the covers, quivering who are advocating bowing
before terrorists.
| Quote: |
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy
This guy believes that violence should be the sole prerogative of
evil, that evil should be able to use violence to strike with
impunity, without resistance, opposition or retaliation.
This dirtbag is pro-evil.
Whine on. Cower on. You and your cardboard cut-out "Good vs. Evil"
nonsense.
|
This means that Jeffery doesn't regard terrorists as evil and the U.S.
as good. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Jim Austin
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
On Jul 14, 6:36 am, * US * wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:49:18 -0700 (PDT), Jim Austin <b...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Fear does not lead to resistance of aggression. Fear leads to
cowering, groveling, bowing before aggressors. Fear leads to ...
|
To reinsert what was omitted: "...cowering, groveling, bowing before
aggressors. Fear leads to liberal/pacifist policies."
| Quote: |
You're licking Bush's jackboots as he steals from you, bushworshipper.
|
Interesting from someone who advocates "cowering, groveling, bowing."
| Quote: |
"Sarah, if the American people had ever known the truth
about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would
be chased down in the streets and lynched."
-George H. W. "Poppy" Bush, spoken in an interview with
Sarah McClendon, June 1992
|
Something leftists have made up.
> http://chicago.indymedia.org/newswire/display/61956/index.php |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Kurt Lochner
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
"senile, craven" <semencanyon@tampabay.rr.com> sniveled reflexively:
| Quote: |
4114 Dead replied to:
Kurt Lochner was castigating the intentional ignorance of:
"senile, craven" <semencanyon@tampabay.rr.com> sniveled the usual:
4114 Dead replied:
- - ---
I would be talking to them. In case you haven't noticed, a hell of a
lot more people--including lots and lots of Americans--have died since
America decided it was too proud to talk to people it didn't like.
Jamieson can't even get along with good Americans who have no
intention of killing him...
Oh, so you're admitting that your intention is to harm
someone who doesn't share your personal prejudices?
Lochner will never learn how to read..
|
Still with your juvenile personal attacks? How predictable..
| Quote: |
Probably why he has such a poor education and can't find a job...
|
Aww, you're just jealous that I'm degreed, self-employed and
enjoying several vocations that you couldn't even begin to
learn, much less practice in your entire squalid lifetime..
--And it still escapes you why no-one shares your silly opinions.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Steve
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:49:56 -0500, Kurt Lochner
<kurt_lochner@DONOTSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"senile, craven" <semencanyon@tampabay.rr.com> sniveled reflexively:
4114 Dead replied to:
Kurt Lochner was castigating the intentional ignorance of:
"senile, craven" <semencanyon@tampabay.rr.com> sniveled the usual:
4114 Dead replied:
- - ---
I would be talking to them. In case you haven't noticed, a hell of a
lot more people--including lots and lots of Americans--have died since
America decided it was too proud to talk to people it didn't like.
Jamieson can't even get along with good Americans who have no
intention of killing him...
Oh, so you're admitting that your intention is to harm
someone who doesn't share your personal prejudices?
Lochner will never learn how to read..
Still with your juvenile personal attacks? How predictable..
Probably why he has such a poor education and can't find a job...
Aww, you're just jealous that I'm degreed, self-employed and
enjoying several vocations that you couldn't even begin to
|
.... Lochner is well into middle age and still paying rent.... Success
in ANY vocation has alluded the poor loser so he's not really enjoying
anything...
| Quote: |
learn, much less practice in your entire squalid lifetime..
|
One major difference between Lochner and me is that I make more money
doing nothing than Lochner makes while "working."
>--And it still escapes you why no-one shares your silly opinions.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
4114 Dead
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:49:56 -0500, Kurt Lochner
<kurt_lochner@DONOTSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"senile, craven" <semencanyon@tampabay.rr.com> sniveled reflexively:
4114 Dead replied to:
Kurt Lochner was castigating the intentional ignorance of:
"senile, craven" <semencanyon@tampabay.rr.com> sniveled the usual:
4114 Dead replied:
- - ---
I would be talking to them. In case you haven't noticed, a hell of a
lot more people--including lots and lots of Americans--have died since
America decided it was too proud to talk to people it didn't like.
Jamieson can't even get along with good Americans who have no
intention of killing him...
Oh, so you're admitting that your intention is to harm
someone who doesn't share your personal prejudices?
Lochner will never learn how to read..
Still with your juvenile personal attacks? How predictable..
Probably why he has such a poor education and can't find a job...
Aww, you're just jealous that I'm degreed, self-employed and
enjoying several vocations that you couldn't even begin to
learn, much less practice in your entire squalid lifetime..
--And it still escapes you why no-one shares your silly opinions..
|
He's a narcissist, Kurt. That means that not only is he convinced
that he is the leader of the right wingers here in ASL, but that folks
like Milt and I secretly don't have him killfiled and obsessively read
every word of his and writhe in anger and dismay over his wit and
insight.
He really believes that. He's incapable of believing anything else.
Fact is, most people, including most right wingers, have him
kill-filed. If you weren't fucking with him, most of us wouldn't even
know if he was still posting or not. He's as relevant as Chris Morton
these days.
--
What do you call a Republican with a conscience?
An ex-Republican.
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8827 (From Yang, AthD (h.c)
"Prosperity and peace are in the balance," -- Putsch, not admitting that he's against both
Putsch: leading America to asymetric warfare since 2001
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
Zepps_News-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
Zepps_essays-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
znuybv
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
On Jul 10, 9:08 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Blackwater wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:43:34 -0700, "Gandalf Grey"
valino...@gmail.com> wrote:
We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.
Then we'll be destroyed - Forever.
Can't win a war without being willing to make a mess,
most especially when the foe IS willing to inflict
endless amounts of 'collateral damage'.
What would you know about winning a war? Where in your class at West
Point did you graduate? You're just another scaredy-cat right winger.
--Jeff
I'll bet he knows that you don't win wars by surrendering. Are you |
aware of that?
| Quote: |
--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Jeffrey Turner
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
Jim Austin wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 13, 5:23 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
Jim Austin wrote:
On Jul 10, 10:43 am, "Gandalf Grey" <valino...@gmail.com> wrote:
Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude
By Robert C. Koehler
Created Jul 10 2008 - 9:09am
"Civilian casualties have been a continuing issue in Afghanistan, and
President Karzai has rebuked American and NATO forces for what he has called
carelessness in their military operations."
This is the genteel, bloodless language of geopolitics, spoken by the Gray
Lady and the heads of state and makers of policy whom she serves. You
wouldn't know that "carelessness" referred to killing a bride (and
twenty-some guests) on her wedding day, except that the observation comes at
the end of the New York Times' account of our July 6 bombing of an Afghani
wedding, which followed a Fourth of July missile strike in that country --
look at the fireworks, Mom! -- that killed 15 innocent civilians. Careless
superpower indeed.
What you would never guess is that "carelessness" meant a deliberate U.S.
policy of waging the war on terror from the air. But that has been our
policy all along, from "shock and awe" and "mission accomplished" to "the
surge is working." It is undebated, unreported, unquestioned, this policy
conceived with the vacuous single-mindedness of serial killers. The death it
has caused has not been calculated and is perhaps incalculable, especially
when you factor in the time-bomb effects of depleted uranium and other
deadly substances that bombing spreads both locally and around the world.
To my mind, nothing, not even the torture we practice at Guantanamo and
throughout the war on terror gulag, exemplifies the disconnect between U.S.
policy and the American people like the sanitized horror of the air war.
When the Nazis dropped 50 tons of explosives on the Spanish city of Guernica
in 1937, the world called it barbaric. Today, such a pummeling of some
hapless Third World region is routine, transformed by an embedded and
co-opted media into "humdrum ordinariness," as Tom Engelhardt has pointed
out. (You'll recall, of course, that Colin Powell, when he lied before the
U.N. General Assembly about Iraqi WMD shortly before we invaded, had the
tapestry reproduction of Picasso's "Guernica" covered up to avoid any
awkward triggering of conscience.)
That we have lost control of our government, money-dominated and obsessed
with secrecy as it is, is less surprising to me than the extent to which we
have lost our watchdog media, which can't even rouse itself awake long
enough to spot the patterns in its own routine coverage of the war. Shall we
take a stroll down Memory Lane?
"Ooh, that's gotta hurt," I recall a colleague of mine saying back in
mid-March of '03, as the invasion got under way and the shock-and-awe
campaign played nonstop on the tube. The relentless air assault on Baghdad
killed untold Iraqis but utterly failed in its intended purpose of
"decapitating" the Saddam Hussein regime, killing not a single high
government official.
In April 2003, we got word that Hussein and his two sons were meeting in a
building in the Mansur district of Baghdad. Within 45 minutes, we flattened
the building with four high explosive bombs, creating a crater 40 feet deep
and killing an unknown number of people, but not Hussein or his sons.
"They found one boy's body on the roof of that house over there," an Iraqi
later told a reporter. "I heard that the father went out for ice cream and
wouldn't let his children come with him. When we came back, they were dead.
He must be dying of grief."
Shortly before Christmas 2003, USA Today, in a rare instance of independent
war coverage, published the results of its four-month investigation of
cluster bomb usage in the first months of the war.
"Although U.S. forces sought to limit what they call 'collateral damage' in
the Iraq campaign, they defied international criticism and used nearly
10,800 cluster weapons; their British allies used almost 2,200," reporter
Paul Wiseman wrote. Describing the "steel rain" that devastated the central
Iraq city of Al Hillah, he noted that images of the aftermath, "including
footage of a baby torn in half, were so gruesome that Western television
networks refused to air them."
Back to Afghanistan, where Taliban-hunting with bombs and missiles has been
commonplace. University of New Hampshire professor Marc Herold, who
monitored the early phases of the war, wrote in 2002 that "the documented
high level of civilian casualties" is caused by "the apparent willingness of
U.S. military strategists to fire missiles into, and drop bombs upon,
heavily populated areas of Afghanistan."
One example, from about a year ago: We bombed a school in eastern
Afghanistan; seven children died. A Pentagon spokesman explained: "If we
knew that there were children inside the building, there was no way that
that air strike would have occurred."
We can't wage war without a wide moral latitude. The public has limited
capacity for collateral damage even in the abstract, and none at all for
actual details, such as babies torn in half by cluster bombs. But this is
the war on terror, which we will never win until we face the truth about
what we're doing and stop doing it. Forever.
The morality urged on us here is the morality of pacifism which is the
denial of the right of self defense. Pacifists say they're against all
violence, but end up holding that violence should be the sole
prerogative of aggressors.
Thus pacifists continually make a common cause with aggressors
including Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jung Il, Saddam Hussein,
Ossama Bin Ladin, etc.
The statement remains unchallenged, uncontested, undenied.
|
The statement is nonsense. The U.S. has made common cause with all
except Hitler and Kim.
| Quote: |
Instead,
this dirtbag resorts to insults, indicating his own acknowledgment
that the statement is true.
|
Whine on.
| Quote: |
And you hide under the covers at the sign of danger. You're just
another scared little right-winger.
Fear does not lead to resistance of aggression. Fear leads to
cowering, groveling, bowing before aggressors. Fear leads to liberal/
pacifist policies.
|
No, you are afraid. There was no aggression for you to resist. And
you are home under your covers, quivering.
| Quote: |
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy
This guy believes that violence should be the sole prerogative of
evil, that evil should be able to use violence to strike with
impunity, without resistance, opposition or retaliation.
This dirtbag is pro-evil.
|
Whine on. Cower on. You and your cardboard cut-out "Good vs. Evil"
nonsense.
--Jeff
--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Jeffrey Turner
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
Joe Irvin wrote:
| Quote: |
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:MM6dnZoYCoLl0ufVnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@posted.localnet...
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
4114 Dead wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:08:34 -0400, "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net
wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Joe Irvin wrote:
... the history of the last 25+ years tells shows that. Look around
the world its Islamic jihadist killing other Muslims or people of
other religions, or just people who don't want to convert to Islam.
The Islamic jihadist kill left wingers as easy as they kill right
wingers. Wake up.
Wake up? You're living in a nightmare.
You mean the 25+ years I mentioned above never happened??? The
Islamic jihadist aim is to kill innocent people. Look around the
world its Islam the religion of peace thats killing innocent people
... thats the nightmare, bro and you cannot see it before your eyes.
Twenty five years ago the CIA was arming the jihadis and Reagan was
calling them "freedom fighters."
About 60+ years ago Russia was an ally and Germany and Italy were
enemies of the US ... foreign policy is fluid and is always subject to
change, but you knew that.
The Americans just killed another 40
innocent people at a wedding in Afghanistan. They are worse than the
jihadis.
It was probably an accident ...
We'll just drop bombs on your town and send an "oops, sorry" to your
next of kin, OK? I'm sure you feel all warm and fuzzy about that.
Its not what I feel 'warm and fuzzy' about. Its about why you snip my
response and didn't answer the questions I asked: "Islamic jihadist
target 'innocent people,' you don't know that and put the
US military on the same moral scale as jihadists? " and "Is targeting
innocent people for death the same morally as accidentally
killing innocent people in a war? " These are two reasonable questions.
Why can't you respond?
Those deaths weren't accidents. When you decide to go to war, you
decide that you will kill some number of innocents.
I was taking war as a given. That is true innocent people are killed in
war. So I may reason from what you are saying that we should NOT go to war
because innocent people may get killed? So Islamic jihadists should have
there way with us because if we respond we may kill innocent people, no
matter how many innocent people they are killing. What you seem to be
missing is that although the US sometimes kills innocent people in this war
against the Islamic jihadists they DO NOT target innocent people.
|
Of course they do. They even target their own people, like Pat Tillman.
And there were no "Islamic jihadists" in Iraq.
| Quote: |
Now the
Islamic jihadist target innocent people ... there is a difference ... can
you see it. I know the results are the same, death, but there is a
difference. What you should ask yourself is which kind of govt you would
rather live under.
|
In the U.S., the Christian fundamentalists are more likely to control
the gov't than the Islamic fundamentalists. But I understand that you
are in such fear that you can't think straight.
| Quote: |
Ninety percent of
the dead in recent wars have been civilians, and the U.S. gets into wars
regularly.
So from that I take if there was no US in the world it would be a more
peaceful place? We are warmongers and shouldn't be allowed to exist.
|
The U.S. is often too quick to resort to war, but when you're spending
half a trillion dollars a year on war-making I guess you've got to do
something to use up your weapons inventory.
| Quote: |
With plenty more planned. So we can expect the Americans to
be killing civilians for many years to come. And a lot more than the
3000 Americans who died on 9/11.
So it would be ok if the US went to war didn't kill any more people than
3000. That is the cut off point ... go to war until you reach the 3000
death limit and stop. We let our enemies set the limits of the number of
deaths? May I ask if you are and Ivy League College Professor?
|
You are in a panic because 3,000 Americans got killed on 9/11. That's
the only reason I used that number. And stop being so afraid.
--Jeff
--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Jeffrey Turner
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:40 am Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
Joe Irvin wrote:
| Quote: |
wbyeats@ireland.com> wrote:
That's akin to Little
Georgie feeling it's okay to do anything just because Little Osama
can. The US has set itself up as the moral authority of the world and
should act accordingly.
No, the US has not set its self up as the moral authority of the world ...
It has reacted to Isamic jihadist killing American innocent people.
|
You know, sometimes I regret that Clinton didn't do the same - and
declare war on Missouri after the Oklahoma City bombing.
--Jeff
--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Joe Irvin
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:0L6dnT0pBLJqPubVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@posted.localnet...
| Quote: |
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:MM6dnZoYCoLl0ufVnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@posted.localnet...
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
4114 Dead wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:08:34 -0400, "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net
wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Joe Irvin wrote:
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
Joe Irvin wrote:
... the history of the last 25+ years tells shows that. Look
around the world its Islamic jihadist killing other Muslims or
people of other religions, or just people who don't want to
convert to Islam. The Islamic jihadist kill left wingers as easy
as they kill right wingers. Wake up.
Wake up? You're living in a nightmare.
You mean the 25+ years I mentioned above never happened??? The
Islamic jihadist aim is to kill innocent people. Look around the
world its Islam the religion of peace thats killing innocent people
... thats the nightmare, bro and you cannot see it before your
eyes.
Twenty five years ago the CIA was arming the jihadis and Reagan was
calling them "freedom fighters."
About 60+ years ago Russia was an ally and Germany and Italy were
enemies of the US ... foreign policy is fluid and is always subject
to change, but you knew that.
The Americans just killed another 40
innocent people at a wedding in Afghanistan. They are worse than
the
jihadis.
It was probably an accident ...
We'll just drop bombs on your town and send an "oops, sorry" to your
next of kin, OK? I'm sure you feel all warm and fuzzy about that.
Its not what I feel 'warm and fuzzy' about. Its about why you snip my
response and didn't answer the questions I asked: "Islamic jihadist
target 'innocent people,' you don't know that and put the
US military on the same moral scale as jihadists? " and "Is targeting
innocent people for death the same morally as accidentally
killing innocent people in a war? " These are two reasonable questions.
Why can't you respond?
Those deaths weren't accidents. When you decide to go to war, you
decide that you will kill some number of innocents.
I was taking war as a given. That is true innocent people are killed in
war. So I may reason from what you are saying that we should NOT go to
war because innocent people may get killed? So Islamic jihadists should
have there way with us because if we respond we may kill innocent people,
no matter how many innocent people they are killing. What you seem to be
missing is that although the US sometimes kills innocent people in this
war against the Islamic jihadists they DO NOT target innocent people.
Of course they do. They even target their own people, like Pat Tillman.
|
So you are telling me that American military fire power was directed
knowingly on the American military personnel on purpose? Sir have you ever
heard of 'friendly fire accidents', do you know what the term friendly fire
means? You seem to rather believe a lie when the truth is in front of you
fact. This was in the all the media. I can't help you but hear is a
definition, maybe you can figure it out.
"Discharge of a military weapon that injures or kills a member of one's own
armed forces or an ally. Modern circumlocution for attacks on soldiers by
their own side, a decidedly unfriendly act but a well-established reality of
war. It even occurred in hand-to-hand combat because men were not recognized
as being friendly or because, in the press of battle, a weapon drawn back to
strike a foe might hit a friend instead."
| Quote: |
And there were no "Islamic jihadists" in Iraq.
|
Not at first, but I never said our reason for going into Iraq was to
hunt/kill Islamic jihadists. I don't know where these ideas come from?
| Quote: |
Now the Islamic jihadist target innocent people ... there is a
difference ... can you see it. I know the results are the same, death,
but there is a difference. What you should ask yourself is which kind
of govt you would rather live under.
In the U.S., the Christian fundamentalists are more likely to control
the gov't than the Islamic fundamentalists.
|
Could you name the 'Christian fundamentalist' Prez candidates running in the
last 20 years? Can you name any Congressmen of either party that are
running as a 'Christian fundamentalists'? Even if they were Christian
fundamentalists running why shouldn't they be allowed to run? Are you
familiar with the Constitution? ... read the 1st amendment. Another lie
that you had rather believe than the truth.
But I understand that you
| Quote: |
are in such fear that you can't think straight.
|
I don't believe lies when the truth is in front of me.
| Quote: |
Ninety percent of
the dead in recent wars have been civilians, and the U.S. gets into wars
regularly.
So from that I take if there was no US in the world it would be a more
peaceful place? We are warmongers and shouldn't be allowed to exist.
The U.S. is often too quick to resort to war, but when you're spending
half a trillion dollars a year on war-making I guess you've got to do
something to use up your weapons inventory.
|
You should get familiar with US History ... the US was unprepared for both
WWI and WWII. It took month for the US to spool up for Gulf War I.
| Quote: |
With plenty more planned. So we can expect the Americans to
be killing civilians for many years to come. And a lot more than the
3000 Americans who died on 9/11.
So it would be ok if the US went to war didn't kill any more people than
3000. That is the cut off point ... go to war until you reach the 3000
death limit and stop. We let our enemies set the limits of the number of
deaths? May I ask if you are and Ivy League College Professor?
You are in a panic because 3,000 Americans got killed on 9/11.
|
Why don't you answer the questions I asked rather than to try and Dr Phil
me? I'm not in a panic about anything. You think recognizing a problem is
panic ... its not, its recognizing reality which you seem to have taken
leave of.
That's
| Quote: |
the only reason I used that number. And stop being so afraid.
|
Well it was a misdiagnosis. I would like to know if you are a college
professor though.
| Quote: |
--Jeff
--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Joe Irvin
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:43 am Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:crCdnZM02e1WNubVnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@posted.localnet...
| Quote: |
Joe Irvin wrote:
wbyeats@ireland.com> wrote:
That's akin to Little
Georgie feeling it's okay to do anything just because Little Osama
can. The US has set itself up as the moral authority of the world and
should act accordingly.
No, the US has not set its self up as the moral authority of the world
... It has reacted to Isamic jihadist killing American innocent people.
You know, sometimes I regret that Clinton didn't do the same - and declare
war on Missouri after the Oklahoma City bombing.
|
I know this may sound off the wall to you, but why the state of Missouri?
.... wild hair? Clinton could declare anything, all he wanted, but its
Congress that has the authority to "declare war, grant Letters ..." This may
upset you but even Prez Clinton would have to go to Congress for your
declaring 'war on Missouri.' You should peruse the US Constitution
sometime.
| Quote: |
--Jeff
--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Bert Byfield
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:45 am Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
| Quote: |
"Discharge of a military weapon that injures or kills a member of
one's own armed forces or an ally. Modern circumlocution for attacks
on soldiers by their own side, a decidedly unfriendly act but a
well-established reality of war. It even occurred in hand-to-hand
combat because men were not recognized as being friendly or because,
in the press of battle, a weapon drawn back to strike a foe might hit
a friend instead."
|
There is no OSHA in combat.
| Quote: |
Now the Islamic jihadist target innocent people ... there is a
difference ... can you see it. I know the results are the same,
death, but there is a difference. What you should ask yourself is
which kind of govt you would rather live under.
|
You are correct that the arabs are wrong to murder innocent people, but so
are we. And we have murdered far more innocents than the arabs have. So you
are not in a good position to assume you have the moral high ground and get
huffy about arab atrocities. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:25:38 -0700 (PDT), Jim Austin <bja@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
.....cowering, groveling, bowing before
aggressors. Fear leads to ...
|
You want to hand off every liberty and right
for which the USA's founders fought.
| Quote: |
... someone who advocates "cowering, groveling, bowing."
|
You sure are a chicken.
No, wait: I take that back.
Poultry aren't so poltroonish.
Tell us the one about WMD in Iraq, again,
traitor bushfilth.
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:49:18 -0700 (PDT), Jim Austin <bja@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Fear does not lead to resistance of aggression. Fear leads to
cowering, groveling, bowing before aggressors. Fear leads to ...
|
You're licking Bush's jackboots as he steals from you, bushworshipper.
"Sarah, if the American people had ever known the truth
about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would
be chased down in the streets and lynched."
-George H. W. "Poppy" Bush, spoken in an interview with
Sarah McClendon, June 1992
http://chicago.indymedia.org/newswire/display/61956/index.php |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
4117 Dead
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:29 am Post subject: Re: Steel rain: We can't wage war without a wide moral latit |
|
|
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:43:04 -0400, "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"Jeffrey Turner" <jturner@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:crCdnZM02e1WNubVnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@posted.localnet...
Joe Irvin wrote:
wbyeats@ireland.com> wrote:
That's akin to Little
Georgie feeling it's okay to do anything just because Little Osama
can. The US has set itself up as the moral authority of the world and
should act accordingly.
No, the US has not set its self up as the moral authority of the world
... It has reacted to Isamic jihadist killing American innocent people.
You know, sometimes I regret that Clinton didn't do the same - and declare
war on Missouri after the Oklahoma City bombing.
I know this may sound off the wall to you, but why the state of Missouri?
... wild hair? Clinton could declare anything, all he wanted, but its
Congress that has the authority to "declare war, grant Letters ..." This may
upset you but even Prez Clinton would have to go to Congress for your
declaring 'war on Missouri.' You should peruse the US Constitution
sometime.
|
So where is the Congressional Declaration of War against Iraq?
| Quote: |
--Jeff
--
The struggle with evil by means of violence
is the same as an attempt to stop a cloud,
in order that there may be no rain. -Leo Tolstoy
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
142 Attacks blocked
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
