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Bob LeChevalier
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 Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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malcolmkirkpatrick@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: |
Teacher credentials are bogus. College of Education courses add
nothing to teacher competence.
Spoken like a true believer.
That's a rebuttal? I have a BA in Math and a PD (5th year certificate)
in Secondary Math Education. I've see the Education curriculum.
|
You've seen ONE education curriculum.
| Quote: |
From US Colleges of Education we get lunatic fads like Whole Language,
Discovery Math, block scheduling, portfolio assessment, and critical
pedagogy.
|
All of which are useful techniques for certain circumstances, if the
teachers are well-trained.
None of them are panaceas, but they are usually evaluated as if they
were.
| Quote: |
Read Diane Ravitch's __Left Back: A Century of Failed School Reforms__.
With this kind of attitude you are not worth debating, choosing to display
ignorance, arogance, and stubbornness rather than openess, willingness, and
the search for knowledge.
You know better than the experts.
Professors of Education have no useful expertise.
Since Diane Ravitch is a Professor of Education, your universal |
negative claim invalidates everything she has ever written.
http://www.dianeravitch.com/vita.html
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier - artificial linguist; genealogist
lojbab@lojban.org Lojban language www.lojban.org |
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Bob LeChevalier
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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malcolmkirkpatrick@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: |
I have a BA in Math and a PD (5th year certificate)
in Secondary Math Education. I've see the Education curriculum.
I have an MM ( A MS without the thesis) in math and am a certified teacher.
My point was, I've seen the Education curriculum. If you really have
most of the coursework for a Math MA or MS you have a brain. Use it.
|
And yet the evidence seems to be that those with such outside degrees
and no education coursework, sometimes with considerable industry work
experience, who then go to work under alternate certifications, are
far more likely to fail in the classroom.
| Quote: |
If a disagreement over policy reflects a difference of values, a State-
monopoly school system myst create unhappy losers,
|
We know. You remind us every time you post.
Any system can create unhappy losers. So will no system. Oftentimes,
whether a loser is unhappy depends on those values. If your value
system is sufficiently obnoxious, any time you don't get exactly what
you want you are an unhappy loser. We call those people spoiled
brats.
Most disagreements in policy these days stems from differences in
ideology, which is not the same as differences in values.
| Quote: |
where a competitive market in education services allows parents to select the
curriculum they prefer.
|
If the parents have a clue about curriculum. If there are multiple
schools within range offering choices in curriculum. If they provide
information to the parents sufficient for them to make an informed
decision. All big ifs.
| Quote: |
If a dispute over policy reflects a difference over a mater of fact, where "What works?" is an empirical question, a
competitive market in education services or numerous small school
districts will provide more information than will a single State-wide
school district.
|
There are relatively few questions of fact that are amenable to
simplistic "try it and see if it works" experiments. Meanwhile, those
experiments are being done on human beings, kids who seldom are given
a lot of choice on whether they get experimented on, but who bear
irremediable damage when the experiment doesn't work.
Thus most educational systems are conservative and not much prone to
trying experiments just to see if something works.
More important, you've made it a research question, and public funding
for research does not go to any old person who says "I want to try an
experiment" and then cons some parents into signing up. If alternate
education programs are to be justified as experiments paid for by the
government, then those experiments should face the same sort of
scrutiny that an NSF grant proposal faces. so as to find out whether
in fact the experiment will answer any questions about "what works?".
The charter school movement doesn't live up to that standard, but at
least need advance approval in most programs. Your ideas don't meet
the test of proper research, and likely wouldn't answer anything.
| Quote: |
A State-monopoly school system is like an experiment with one treatment and no controls, a retarded wxperimental
design.
|
If there were a true state monopoly with *no* exceptions, and *every*
student in that system were subjected to exactly the same "treatment",
then it would approach your claim.
Except that you yourself have tried to use the results from other
countries as "alternate treatments" or as "controls" in judging our
supposedly monolithic monopoly, thereby showing that this claim is
mere posturing. If your statement is correct and *relevant*, then no
comparisons to other countries would be relevant.
In point of fact, there is no true monopoly, because 10% of students
attend programs entirely outside the control of your "monopoly". They
of course aren't required to be measured in the same way as the public
schools are, so these "experiments" give relatively little information
about "what works". On the other hand, in the real world, there are
in fact a few THOUSAND school districts, for which detailed
demographic data is available, and each providing AT LEAST one
"treatment", but many providing multiple such, since different schools
have different programs, and sometimes radically different curricula.
Some schools offer multiple programs - several local high schools
offer AP courses, honors courses, IB programs, magnet "academies"
focusing on some non-traditional area of the curriculum, work-study
programs, as well as a number of ordinary core classes and electives.
| Quote: |
From US Colleges of Education we get lunatic fads like Whole Language,
Discovery Math, block scheduling, portfolio assessment, and critical
pedagogy. Read Diane Ravitch's __Left Back: A Century of Failed School
Reforms__.
From schools of education we get pedagogy, childhood development, legal
standards for education, etc.
And these are baloney.
|
Your claim has no credibility.
| Quote: |
Read Ravitch (__Left Back__).
|
She's associated with a school of education. Therefore your own
claims invalidate her opinions.
| Quote: |
Read Rita Kramer (__Ed School Follies__).
|
Her biography indicates no reason to believe that she has any special
knowledge or experience with respect to education.
http://ritakramer.com/index.htm
| Quote: |
In my experience the problems you mnentioned above don;t come from
teaching collegesbut from researchers...
False dichotomy. Those "researchers" are College of Ed faculty or
Regional Education Lab Ed.Ds who didn't get a tenure-track academic
position.
|
Why would having a tenure-track academic position be relevant? You've
damned *everyone* connected with education colleges.
| Quote: |
...and legislatures...
...responding to testimony from the thoroughly schooled, highly
credentialed mediocrities listed above.
|
Actually, they mostly respond to ideologues and complainers whose
squeaky wheel gets the grease.
You often try to damn the NEA and the unions as having undue
influence, and yet I've seen no evidence that any of the following
came about as a result of union lobbying.
| Quote: |
From US Colleges of Education we get lunatic fads like Whole Language,
Discovery Math, block scheduling, portfolio assessment, and critical
pedagogy.
|
You seem to have a problem figuring out who the bogeyman is for lousy
education results. Even though most evidence I've seen seems to point
at the parents that you want to give total control to (and as a parent
with recently grown kids, I KNOW that a lot of the failures in their
education came errors made by their parents, with some failure
resulting from the laxity in control by other parents, leading to my
own kids being able to avoid my efforts at discipline.
| Quote: |
From the idiot legislature we get standardized testing,...
What's your objection to standardized tests?
|
For one thing, private schools and home schools are usually not
subject to the same standard.
| Quote: |
From idiot taxpayers we get falling down school buildings (see _Corridors of
Shame_), selling Otis Spunkmeyer cookie at linch to p[ay for diaper wipes
for the physically handicapped kids, arts rpograms closing yet football
stadia being built at every middle and high school, 35 kids per classroom.
ateachers spending theor own money for chalk, kleenex, and copier paer
(until the copiers run out of toer, then they pay for the whole thing).
In Hawaii, ten years ago, it cost over $200,000 per room to build the
average classroom building.
|
Non-responsive.
| Quote: |
We know, from the Federal investigation
into the HNL contracting prosecution, how the competitive bidding
process fails (it was rigged).
|
Not relevant.
| Quote: |
Dilapidated buildings and obsolete
textbooks are not due to insufficient taxpayer generosity;
|
Dilapidated buildings are due to AGE, and a general tendency in this
society to shortchange maintenance of infrastructure, often until
catastrophic failure occurs.
Obsolete textbooks are due to AGE, because new knowledge is constantly
developing, and because society and its expectations have changed.
Newspapers that aren't Internet savvy are failing rapidly for the same
reason.
| Quote: |
the bureaucrats steal taxpayer money and poor kids' life chances. .
|
So does the private sector.
| Quote: |
Legislatures hamstring teachers disciplining kids to the point that one of
my 8th grade girls kicked a team member in the balls and all we could do was
send her to another school for 30 days to "cool off".
Ths is a consequence of the policy I criticize.
|
No. It is a consequence of our litigious society.
| Quote: |
Nothing is gained by restricting
parents' options for the use of the taxpayers K-12 education subsidy
to these schools.
|
Quite a lot is gained. You just happen to not value any of it, or to
feel that the private sector will mystically provide it if it is
necessary.
| Quote: |
We have legislatures funding all those kook programs you mentioned, then
madating their implementation, again over teacher objections, becaywe they
are pandering to stupid taxpayers, 40% of whom never graduated from HS.
Your legislature attends to the interests of the NEA.
|
The NEA has relatively little clout in right-to-work states like his.
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier - artificial linguist; genealogist
lojbab@lojban.org Lojban language www.lojban.org |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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On Jun 30, 8:04 am, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
| Quote: |
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com wrote:
I have a BA in Math and a PD (5th year certificate)
in Secondary Math Education. I've see the Education curriculum.
I have an MM ( A MS without the thesis) in math and am a certified teacher.
My point was, I've seen the Education curriculum. If you really have
most of the coursework for a Math MA or MS you have a brain. Use it.
And yet the evidence seems to be that those with such outside degrees
and no education coursework, sometimes with considerable industry work
experience, who then go to work under alternate certifications, are
far more likely to fail in the classroom.
Cite? Hanushek contends otherwise. See:...http://www.mineduc.cl/biblio/ |
documento/w11154.pdf
(Hanushek, et al.) "Our findings on teacher effectiveness are also
consistent with prior evidence showing that certification and
experience explain little of the quality variation, with the exception
of sizeable improvement following the initial year of teaching."
The Brookings Institution also says otherwise.
" Richard Rothstein and Michael John Podgursky - Comments - Brookings
Papers on Education Policy 2004 Brookings Papers on Education Policy
2004 (2004) 25-39 Comments [Article by Eric A. Hanushek and Steven G.
Rivkin] Comment by Richard Rothstein Two important themes in Eric A.
Hanushek and Steven G. Rivkin's paper deserve further examination.
First, the authors argue that excellent teachers can make a huge
difference in raising student achievement. If disadvantaged students
could have a string of excellent teachers, these students' achievement
would rise to the level of middle-class students, eliminating the test
score gap. Second, they say that identifying excellent teachers for
hire and retention is extraordinarily difficult. Econometric analysis
has found little correlation between students' achievement and their
teachers' characteristics, such as certification, teachers' test
scores, their verbal ability, or their education beyond a bachelor's
degree. Because using any of these imperfect characteristics as
screens for teacher hiring narrows the pool of potential teachers,
schools should be permitted to hire any college graduates whom
administrators believe are likely to raise student achievement. And
schools should retain only those teachers who do raise student
achievement."
| Quote: |
If a disagreement over policy reflects a difference of values, a State-
monopoly school system must create unhappy losers, where a competitive
market in education services allows parents to select the curriculum they
prefer.
If the parents have a clue about curriculum. If there are multiple
schools within range offering choices in curriculum. If they provide
information to the parents sufficient for them to make an informed
decision. All big ifs.
Still better than the State-monopoly school system.
If a dispute over policy reflects a difference over a mater of fact, where "What
works?" is an empirical question, a competitive market in education services
or numerous small school districts will provide more information than will a
single State-wide school district.
There are relatively few questions of fact that are amenable to
simplistic "try it and see if it works" experiments. Meanwhile, those
experiments are being done on human beings, kids who seldom are given
a lot of choice on whether they get experimented on, but who bear
irremediable damage when the experiment doesn't work.
Competitive markets in education services provide that choice. We |
agree about the damage abusive, ill-conceived experiments inflict.
That's the problem with the State-monopoly school system.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
A State-monopoly school system is like an experiment with one treatment and > > no controls, a retarded experimental design.
If there were a true state monopoly with *no* exceptions, and *every*
student in that system were subjected to exactly the same "treatment",
then it would approach your claim.
It's a matter of degree.
Discussion deleted...
From US Colleges of Education we get lunatic fads like Whole Language,
Discovery Math, block scheduling, portfolio assessment, and critical
pedagogy. Read Diane Ravitch's __Left Back: A Century of Failed School
Reforms__.
From schools of education we get pedagogy, childhood development, legal
standards for education, etc.
And these are baloney.
Your claim has no credibility.
Read Ravitch (__Left Back__).
She's associated with a school of education. Therefore your own
claims invalidate her opinions.
No. I said we get lunatic fads from Colleges of Education. Isolated |
individuals can do good work. Ravitch is a historian of the US school
system. No K-12 teacher needs what Ravitch has written to do a good
job. Her good work adds nothing to any teacher's competence, unless
that teacher teaches US History AND is interested in the history of
Education.
?
| Quote: |
Read Rita Kramer (__Ed School Follies__).
Her biography indicates no reason to believe that she has any special
knowledge or experience with respect to education.
Read the book.
In my experience the problems you mnentioned above don't come from
teaching collegesbut from researchers...
False dichotomy. Those "researchers" are College of Ed faculty or
Regional Education Lab Ed.Ds who didn't get a tenure-track academic
position.
Why would having a tenure-track academic position be relevant? You've
damned *everyone* connected with education colleges.
Almost.
...and legislatures...
...responding to testimony from the thoroughly schooled, highly
credentialed mediocrities listed above.
Actually, they mostly respond to ideologues and complainers whose
squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Considerable overlap, here.
You often try to damn the NEA and the unions as having undue
influence, and yet I've seen no evidence that any of the following
came about as a result of union lobbying.
From US Colleges of Education we get lunatic fads like Whole Language,
Discovery Math, block scheduling, portfolio assessment, and critical
pedagogy.
You seem to have a problem figuring out who the bogeyman is for lousy
education results. Even though most evidence I've seen seems to point
at the parents that you want to give total control to (and as a parent
with recently grown kids, I KNOW that a lot of the failures in their
education came errors made by their parents, with some failure
resulting from the laxity in control by other parents, leading to my
own kids being able to avoid my efforts at discipline.
How 'bout a policy of "innocnt until proven guilty"?
On 2000-07-17 Bob LeChevalier wrote:... |
"I have observed as a parent that my kids regularly consider the non-
granting
of a desired reward/payment/benefit to be a punishment, and the
threat
of withholding of a privilege strongly desired is more coercive than
the threat of a beating."
| Quote: |
Perhaps they got used to the beatings.
Discussion deleted...
From idiot taxpayers we get falling down school buildings (see _Corridors of
Shame_), selling Otis Spunkmeyer cookie at linch to p[ay for diaper wipes
for the physically handicapped kids, arts rpograms closing yet football
stadia being built at every middle and high school, 35 kids per classroom.
ateachers spending theor own money for chalk, kleenex, and copier paer
(until the copiers run out of toer, then they pay for the whole thing)..
In Hawaii, ten years ago, it cost over $200,000 per room to build the
average classroom building.
Non-responsive.
Not at all. The problem is NOT insufficient taxpayer generosty but the |
corruption which the State-monopoly system invites.
| Quote: |
We know, from the Federal investigation
into the HNL contracting prosecution, how the competitive bidding
process fails (it was rigged).
Not relevant.
Dilapidated buildings and obsolete
textbooks are not due to insufficient taxpayer generosity;
Dilapidated buildings are due to AGE, and a general tendency in this
society to shortchange maintenance of infrastructure, often until
catastrophic failure occurs.
The system spends its ample budget in graft.
Discussion deleted... |
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Larry Hewitt
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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|
<malcolmkirkpatrick@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d472b3f6-ac38-4e1d-9cd8-f4e3da01f369@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 30, 1:21 am, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e280bce4-b434-4660-b2ff-53f63e3aae97@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 29, 8:56 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Discussion deleted...
Teacher credentials are bogus. College of Education courses add
nothing to teacher competence.
Spoken like a true believer.
That's a rebuttal?
Yep.
Doesn't look like one to me.
I have a BA in Math and a PD (5th year certificate)
in Secondary Math Education. I've see the Education curriculum.
I have an MM ( A MS without the thesis) in math and am a certified
teacher.
My point was, I've seen the Education curriculum. |
-You've seen one or two, at mopst.
If you really have
most of the coursework for a Math MA or MS you have a brain. Use it.
- I have all of the course work.. Your inability to read and comprehend my
entire sentence is telling.
And I do use it.
If a disagreement over policy reflects a difference of values, a State-
monopoly school system myst create unhappy losers, where a
competitive market in education services allows parents to select the
curriculum they prefer.
--- But, as Inote later, 40% of hte parents in my state donot have HS
degree. And about an equal numbrer have no college experience. How do you
expect them to make a reasoned decision?
If a dispute over policy reflects a difference
over a mater of fact, where "What works?" is an empirical question, a
competitive market in education services or numerous small school
districts will provide more information than will a single State-wide
school district. A State-monopoly school system is like an experiment
with one treatment and no controls, a retarded wxperimental
design.
Wring. Facts are not necessary.
A lot of parents in my regoin send their kids to religious schools or home
school not based on facts and a rational decision but on emotion --- fear,
religious bias, even some parents who do not htink that a girl needs more
than an 8th grade education before marrying (I've tutored them).
| Quote: |
From US Colleges of Education we get lunatic fads like Whole Language,
Discovery Math, block scheduling, portfolio assessment, and critical
pedagogy. Read Diane Ravitch's __Left Back: A Century of Failed School
Reforms__.
From schools of education we get pedagogy, childhood development, legal
standards for education, etc.
And these are baloney. Read Ravitch (__Left Back__). Read Rita Kramer |
(__Ed School Follies__).
Your --- and her--- opinion.
Others disagree.
Another thing they do is weed out students wwho want to "motehr" children,
not teach. They aslo insist on competency in core subjects and specialized
areas.
| Quote: |
In my experience the problems you mnentioned above don;t come from
teaching collegesbut from researchers...
False dichotomy. Those "researchers" are College of Ed faculty or |
Regional Education Lab Ed.Ds who didn't get a tenure-track academic
position.
Real dichotomy. At my alma mater, for ex, the researchers did not trach
teachers, but they taught other candidates for research degree. Theywq
woulld'nt deign to talk to underlassmen or masters candidate teachers, but
only grad schoolers seeking research degrees. And certification curriculum
did not teach some of hteir "theories", but only those subjects approved by
the state and local school boards.
| Quote: |
...and legislatures...
....responding to testimony from the thoroughly schooled, highly |
credentialed mediocrities listed above.
Seeking ways to show idiot consitutents that they were doing "something"
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
|
Coward.
| Quote: |
From the idiot legislature we get standardized testing,...
What's your objection to standardized tests? Define "standard". |
Tests given to all students used to rate an education
Around here it was the PACT test, recently replaced because even our idiot
right wing legislature conceded ti showed nothing. But for a dozen years
cash strapped districts were forced to spend hundreds of thousands of
dollars of test prep books and teachers spent a hundred hours or more of
classroom time on the work books instead of curriculum.
| Quote: |
...NCLB, in my srtare
taking moeny away fro the wealthier districts to to pay for porrer
districts (instead ofthe state paying,a s the previous law said), adn
legislation ensuring that each child ggets a "minimum" esucation, adn
ketchup counting as a vegetable.
Engrish, prease. |
My legislature now forbids local districts from using property taxes for
school funding, instead replacing ot with an increase in the sales tax. The
intent was to eliminate the need, forced by a state supreme court decision,
to use scarce state general funds to make up funding shortages inpoor
districts. The decision put a minimum expeniture per chidl, and districts
unable to meet that through local funds were to be supplemented with state
funds. Unfortunaetly, the tax swap was not even and richer districts, like
mine, now export tax money to poorer districts while local spending goes
down.
| Quote: |
From idiot taxpayers we get falling down school buildings (see _Corridors
of
Shame_), selling Otis Spunkmeyer cookie at linch to p[ay for diaper wipes
for the physically handicapped kids, arts rpograms closing yet football
stadia being built at every middle and high school, 35 kids per classroom.
ateachers spending theor own money for chalk, kleenex, and copier paer
(until the copiers run out of toer, then they pay for the whole thing).
In Hawaii, ten years ago, it cost over $200,000 per room to build the |
average classroom building. We know, from the Federal investigation
into the HNL contracting prosecution, how the competitive bidding
process fails (it was rigged). Dilapidated buildings and obsolete
textbooks are not due to insufficient taxpayer generosity; the
bureaucrats steal taxpayer money and poor kids' life chances. .
In South Carolina they are. Here every doallr spent is a line item on a tax
bill.
A distric int he Greenville area refused to pass a bond issue ( a common
problem here) to repace a delapidated HS building where a roof collapsed 3
motnhs later. The school taught in shifts in the remaining part of the
building for he rest of hte year.. They still ahvenl;t figured out what to
do in September.
Our rightard legislature keeps cutting taxes forthe rich so it is
chronically short of moeny. WE passed an "education" lottery a feew years
ago to help fund schools. Our wonderful legisalture now uses income from the
lottery to replace general funds for educaiotn, alowing another tax cut for
hte rich. School funding has actually fallen, in real dollars, despite
gorign enrollment.
A bond issue here for new texts was shot down. Most students are not allowed
to take books home anymore.
And it aint; just here. Accross the border iN Charlotte, NC, taxpayers have
shot down the last two bond issues for schools, and now more than 15% of
students go to school in trailers.
The bonds were also to pay for taxts there, too. Soem schools use books more
than 5 years old.
Many teachers in the region now photocopy tects becaue rapidly rising
enrollment has created shortages. On their own dime.
| Quote: |
Legislatures hamstring teachers disciplining kids to the point that one of
my 8th grade girls kicked a team member in the balls and all we could do
was
send her to another school for 30 days to "cool off".
Ths is a consequence of the policy I criticize. |
Bullhockey.
It is a direct result of NCLB, where schools are punished is attendance
falls below a certain level, for any reason REAL suspension counts against
attendance and could put a school in "failing" status.
Did you know,. btw, that the feds keep track of teacher attendance, too? To
meet those requirements teachers here are required to go in on snow days
( a half day counts), and we were denied leave because our conracts allowed
more leave than the feds did.
The State cannot
subsidize education without a definition of "education", but then
students, parents, and real classroom teachers are bound by the
State's definition.
Again, do you want an 8th grade dropout farmer or laborer or mill worker to
define education? We have hundreds of thousands of them
\Are you seriously suggesting that an 8th grader should define his/her
"education?
I had 13 yr olds planning on dropping out on their 14th birthday (with
parental consent).
Uniform curricula and methods of instruction
guarantee a poor fit between schools and many students.
But a cetain minimum standard educationis required to function in this
society. That is why electives are available in well-funded high schools.
Compulsory attendance means little unless some school is compelled to
accept students rejected everywhere else.
Some districts sanely accomplish this, usingspecial schools for discipline
problems ro special education students.
It is only when cheapskate taxpayer,s ,like mine, refuse to fun these
schools that they must be "mainstremed"
We are,, after all, ruled by a constitution that demands equal treatment.
Call these default option
schools "the public schools". Nothing is gained by restricting
parents' options for the use of the taxpayers K-12 education subsidy
to these schools.
Why do youinsist n using loaded words> Public education is not "subsidized",
it is funded.
| Quote: |
.
Discussion deleted...
Parents could give a shit about their kids education, to the point that
40%
of 8th graders in my state do not graduate. They think that homework is an
unnecessary intrusion on play time or a child's employment and refuse to
make them do assignments, adn that first period is a chance for their kid
to
make up sllep lost because they were up all night palying plastation 3,
then
chew out teachers because their kid failed. That's if they care at all and
aren;t drunlks, addicts, or general bums.
I quit assigning homework. Give me 5 50-minute periods a week without |
disruption and I don't need to command more time.
What a luxury.
In my school it is not enough.
And I fail to understand how math can be learned in the early grades without
some rote repetition., especially when you have 35 kids in the calss. An
algebra I student anot comprehend, for ex, mean, median, and mode with 50
minutes of defintions , 3 examples on the board, a a cuple of problems
workes at theur desk. I was licky to have 2 periods to teac a subject ---
most onl had a total of 55 minutes.
I fail to see how a student can write an English or History paper in the
classroom while getting the instruction on how to do it and content.
I fail to see how a student can learn to play the trumpet without
practicing. And so on.
If you lift weights
1 hour a day, five days a week, you'll bulk up.
-Now do 6 different exercises.
If you run an hour a
day, five days a week, you'll get fit. There's no need for a Math
teacher to command more time.
Bullhockey.
And it gets worse as content gets more advances.
Maybe you are such a genuis thaat you could passs a topology class without
spending hours each week on homework. I couldn;t.
| Quote: |
WE have PTO's doing constant fundrausers for atheltic equipment,
cheerleader
outfits, money for bands fr a dance, etc --- but books, equiment for labs,
band instruments, no way. And as a reward for the top fundraisers they
give
out "get out of class free" coupons or in school dances.
You're not making a case for your institution, here. |
I'm defending teachers.
Idiot taxpayers refuse to fully fund schools, and idiot parents minimize the
value of class time.
| Quote: |
We have legislatures funding all those kook programs you mentioned, then
madating their implementation, again over teacher objections, becaywe they
are pandering to stupid taxpayers, 40% of whom never graduated from HS.
Your legislature attends to the interests of the NEA. |
Bullshit.
There are no union contracts in this state, and the state is strongly
anti-union. In my distric teachers joined a union to get cheap liability
insurance. Enrollment carsds wer all that were allowed to be distributed on
school grounds.
They fund this shit because they run on improving education adn now they
have to do "something".
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
John Derbyshire, |
New English Review, Dec. 2006
"The Dream Palace of Educational Theorists"http://
www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=4844&sec_id=4844-
More bullhockey.
Larry |
|
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
|
|
On Jun 30, 12:52 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d472b3f6-ac38-4e1d-9cd8-f4e3da01f369@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 30, 1:21 am, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:> <malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e280bce4-b434-4660-b2ff-53f63e3aae97@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 29, 8:56 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Discussion deleted.
I have a BA in Math and a PD (5th year certificate)
in Secondary Math Education. I've see the Education curriculum.
I have an MM ( A MS without the thesis) in math and am a certified
teacher.
My point was, I've seen the Education curriculum.
-You've seen one or two, at most.
And read about more. Ever heard of the Holmes Group? They advocated |
abolishing the undergraduate Education degree. Seen the recent
criticism of Colleges of Education from (I believe it was) a former
Dean of Columbia Teachers College? Education "theory" is a playpen
for nitwit pseudo-intellectuals. Their only real purpose is to create
the illusion of specialized expertise, so as to justify control of the
educcation industry by specialists.
| Quote: |
If you really have most of the coursework for a Math MA or MS you have a
brain. Use it.
- I have all of the course work.. Your inability to read and comprehend my
entire sentence is telling.
That's sort of how I felt. I wasn't bragging, just observing that I'd |
seen the Education curriculum and had seen another course to which I
could compare the Education curriculum.
| Quote: |
If a disagreement over policy reflects a difference of values, a State-
monopoly school system myst create unhappy losers, where a
competitive market in education services allows parents to select the
curriculum they prefer.
--- But, as I note later, 40% of hte parents in my state do not have HS
degree. And about an equal numbrer have no college experience. How do you
expect them to make a reasoned decision?
The problem is even larger with political control of school. How can |
they vote intelligently for Education policy? What parents have is
superior local knowledge of their own children's interests and
abilities. We don't need to know much about mechanical engineering to
determine which car to buy. The market sorts things out better than
any political process.
| Quote: |
If a dispute over policy reflects a difference
over a mater of fact, where "What works?" is an empirical question, a
competitive market in education services or numerous small school
districts will provide more information than will a single State-wide
school district. A State-monopoly school system is like an experiment
with one treatment and no controls, a retarded wxperimental
design.
Wring. Facts are not necessary.
A lot of parents in my regoin send their kids to religious schools or home
school not based on facts and a rational decision but on emotion --- fear,
religious bias, even some parents who do not think that a girl needs more
than an 8th grade education before marrying (I've tutored them).
Maybe they're right. Maybe their children will be better off in a |
homeschool environment or in a parochial school than in one of the NEA/
AFT/AFSCME cartel's schools.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted ( Colleges of Education and Education fads).
Another thing they do is weed out students wwho want to "mother" children,
not teach. They aslo insist on competency in core subjects and specialized
areas.
Education majors rank among the bottom of entering college students, |
as measured by standatdized tests for college admission. Education
majors rank among the lowest applicants for graduate school, based on
GRE, LSAT, GMAT. The UH College of Education graduates Elem Ed majors
who cannot add fractions.
| Quote: |
In my experience the problems you mentioned above don't come from
teaching colleges but from researchers...
False dichotomy. Those "researchers" are College of Ed faculty or
Regional Education Lab Ed.Ds who didn't get a tenure-track academic
position.
Real dichotomy. At my alma mater, for ex, the researchers did not trach
teachers, but they taught other candidates for research degree. They
woulld'nt deign to talk to underlassmen or masters candidate teachers, but
only grad schoolers seeking research degrees. And certification curriculum
did not teach some of hteir "theories", but only those subjects approved by
the state and local school boards.
Your college hired professors who did no research? That's unusual. The |
research is bogus, but they bill the taxpayers for it. That's how they
justify taking $80,000 per year for 6 hours per week and 32 weeks a
year of face-time with students.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
Coward.
Please try be civil.
From the idiot legislature we get standardized testing,...
What's your objection to standardized tests? Define "standard".
Tests given to all students used to rate an education
I mean generally. What's a "standard" and "and a "standardized |
test"?. You claimed to be a Math major. This shouldn't be too hard.
| Quote: |
Around here it was the PACT test, recently replaced because even our idiot
right wing legislature conceded ti showed nothing. But for a dozen years
cash strapped districts were forced to spend hundreds of thousands of
dollars of test prep books and teachers spent a hundred hours or more of
classroom time on the work books instead of curriculum.
What "force"? You describe a total waste of money. Commercial |
publishers will supply and grade standardized tests of Readng
vocabulary, Reading comprehension, and Math for about $20 per
pupil.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
My legislature now forbids local districts from using property taxes for
school funding, instead replacing ot with an increase in the sales tax. The
intent was to eliminate the need, forced by a state supreme court decision,
to use scarce state general funds to make up funding shortages in poor
districts. The decision put a minimum expeniture per chidl, and districts
unable to meet that through local funds were to be supplemented with state
funds. Unfortunaetly, the tax swap was not even and richer districts, like
mine, now export tax money to poorer districts while local spending goes
down.
Any tax subsidy scheme will have problems. Either districts will |
receive vastly different per pupil budgets ( if they receive
significant revenues from local sources), or wealthy districts will
subsidize poor districts (if the State imposes a uniform education-
dedicated revenue streal).
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
Dilapidated buildings and obsolete
textbooks are not due to insufficient taxpayer generosity; the
bureaucrats steal taxpayer money and poor kids' life chances. .
In South Carolina they are. Here every doallr spent is a line item on a tax
bill.
A distric int he Greenville area refused to pass a bond issue ( a common
problem here) to repace a delapidated HS building where a roof collapsed 3
motnhs later. The school taught in shifts in the remaining part of the
building for he rest of hte year.. They still havenl't figured out what to
do in September.
That doesn't establish that taxpayers were insufficiently generous. |
According to NCES
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d06/tables/dt06_168.asp
in 2004 North Carolina spent $7,177 per pupil to operate its schools
and $1,193 on capital improvements. Suppose the average classroom
teacher has 20 students. You think you need $167,400 to cover your
salary, a space, books, utilities, lunch, and a gym membership for
each kid? .
| Quote: |
In the current system, real classroom teachers carry a swarm of out-of- |
classroom parasites on their backs.
| Quote: |
Our rightard legislature keeps cutting taxes forthe rich so it is
chronically short of moeny. WE passed an "education" lottery a feew years
ago to help fund schools. Our wonderful legisalture now uses income from the
lottery to replace general funds for educaiotn, alowing another tax cut for
hte rich. School funding has actually fallen, in real dollars, despite
gorign enrollment.
Look at the budget. Many other countries do a better job with less |
money.
| Quote: |
A bond issue here for new texts was shot down. Most students are not allowed
to take books home anymore.
And it aint; just here. Accross the border iN Charlotte, NC, taxpayers have
shot down the last two bond issues for schools, and now more than 15% of
students go to school in trailers.
The bonds were also to pay for taxts there, too. Soem schools use books more
than 5 years old.
Many teachers in the region now photocopy tects becaue rapidly rising
enrollment has created shortages. On their own dime.
These problems are not due to insufficient taxpayer generosity. There |
is no amount of money so great that the parasites cannot waste it.
You're making my case.
| Quote: |
Legislatures hamstring teachers disciplining kids to the point that one of
my 8th grade girls kicked a team member in the balls and all we could do
was send her to another school for 30 days to "cool off".
Ths is a consequence of the policy I criticize.
Bullhockey.
It is a direct result of NCLB, where schools are punished if attendance
falls below a certain level, for any reason REAL suspension counts against
attendance and could put a school in "failing" status.
You describe an inevitable consequence of compulsory attendance, |
exacerbated by the State-monopoly structure of the US Education
industry. Einstein opposed compulsory attendance at school. Gandhi
opposed compulsory attendance at school.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
The State cannot subsidize education without a definition of "education", but
then students, parents, and real classroom teachers are bound by the
State's definition.
Again, do you want an 8th grade dropout farmer or laborer or mill worker to
define education? We have hundreds of thousands of them
I don't see that organized violence (the State) adds anything to |
education system performance. Benjamin Franklin attended school for
two years. Hiram Maxim left school at 13 and apprenticed. Thomas
Edison was homeschooled and started work at 13. Richard Arkwright was
homeschooled. James Hargreaves had no more than an elementary school
education. Cyrus McCormick was homeschooled.
| Quote: |
Are you seriously suggesting that an 8th grader should define his/her
"education?
I wrote before, that's not my recommendation. I recommend Parent |
Performance Contracting
http://harriettubmanagenda.blogspot.com/2005/12/proposal.html
| Quote: |
I had 13 yr olds planning on dropping out on their 14th birthday (with
parental consent).
|
Edison did. Hiram Maxim did. Ben Franklin did, David Farragut joined
the Navy at 9, went to sea at 11, and commanded his first ship at 15.
Please read this article on artificially extended adolescence by Ted
Kolderie. http://www.educationevolving.org/pdf/Adolescence.pdf
| Quote: |
Uniform curricula and methods of instruction guarantee a poor fit between
schools and many students.
But a cetain minimum standard education is required to function in this
society. That is why electives are available in well-funded high schools.
The State-monopoly system doesn't deliver this minimum.
Compulsory attendance means little unless some school is compelled to
accept students rejected everywhere else.
Some districts sanely accomplish this, using special schools for discipline
problems ro special education students.
It is only when cheapskate taxpayers, like mine, refuse to fund these
schools that they must be "mainstremed"
We are, after all, ruled by a constitution that demands equal treatment.
Make up your mind!!! You were just complaining about a South Carolina |
Supreme Court ruling which invalidated school funding through local
property taxes for exactly this reason.
| Quote: |
Call these default option schools "the public schools". Nothing is gained by
restricting parents' options for the use of the taxpayers K-12 education subsidy
to these schools.
Why do you insist n using loaded words? Public education is not "subsidized",
it is funded.
It's a subsidy by ordinary dictionary definition.
Discussion deleted...
Parents could give a shit about their kids education, to the point that
40% of 8th graders in my state do not graduate. They think that homework is > > an unnecessary intrusion on play time or a child's employment and refuse to
make them do assignments, adn that first period is a chance for their kid
to make up
I agree with parents about homework. 6 hours in school for 180 days |
per year is enough. It does not take 12 years to teach a normal child
to read and compute. Most vocational training occurs more effectively
on the job.
| Quote: |
Political control of school exacerbates the problem of parent |
uninvolvement. Political control of school also ties the fortunes of
parents who do care to those who do not. Political control of
education policy turns insignificant differences over matters of fact,
over values, and over taste, which competetive markets in education
services would resolve without conflict (you eat what you want and
I'll eat what I want. You wear size 10 B shoes and I'll wear size 9D
shoes. Why do we all have to wear the same size shoes?) into high-
stakes, winner-take-all contests which must create unhappy losers.
| Quote: |
Please read this one page Marvin Minsky comment on school. |
http://www.rru.com/~meo/hs.minski.html
Please read E.G. West, "Education Vouchers in Principle and Practice:
A Survey", The World Bank Research Observer.
http://www.worldbank.org/research/journals/wbro/obsfeb97/educate.htm |
|
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Larry Hewitt
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:25 am Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
|
|
<malcolmkirkpatrick@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0c008c40-a9f9-4f0f-b840-e17f41ba2cc7@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 30, 12:52 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d472b3f6-ac38-4e1d-9cd8-f4e3da01f369@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 30, 1:21 am, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e280bce4-b434-4660-b2ff-53f63e3aae97@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 29, 8:56 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Discussion deleted.
I have a BA in Math and a PD (5th year certificate)
in Secondary Math Education. I've see the Education curriculum.
I have an MM ( A MS without the thesis) in math and am a certified
teacher.
My point was, I've seen the Education curriculum.
-You've seen one or two, at most.
And read about more. Ever heard of the Holmes Group? They advocated |
abolishing the undergraduate Education degree. Seen the recent
criticism of Colleges of Education from (I believe it was) a former
Dean of Columbia Teachers College? Education "theory" is a playpen
for nitwit pseudo-intellectuals. Their only real purpose is to create
the illusion of specialized expertise, so as to justify control of the
educcation industry by specialists.
| Quote: |
If you really have most of the coursework for a Math MA or MS you have a
brain. Use it.
- I have all of the course work.. Your inability to read and comprehend my
entire sentence is telling.
That's sort of how I felt. I wasn't bragging, just observing that I'd |
seen the Education curriculum and had seen another course to which I
could compare the Education curriculum.
| Quote: |
If a disagreement over policy reflects a difference of values, a State-
monopoly school system myst create unhappy losers, where a
competitive market in education services allows parents to select the
curriculum they prefer.
--- But, as I note later, 40% of hte parents in my state do not have HS
degree. And about an equal numbrer have no college experience. How do you
expect them to make a reasoned decision?
The problem is even larger with political control of school. How can |
they vote intelligently for Education policy?
--
Good question.
How can parents who did not graduate from HS, who have no ability to
function at more than a minimal level in math, reading, etc, who grew up in
a era where children left school early to go to work in textile mills that
are no longer in this country amke an informed decision on a curriculum
best suited to make their children excell in a society they do not
understand?
How can parents who have never used a computer, who view the internet as a
means for predators to get to their children, determine what level of
technology education are needed.
How can parents who have no idea what future job markets will look like set
up a curriculum for their children that will prepare them for that future.
On a moral plane, should we let parents lacking knowledge, or maybe even
acting on their own biases and beliefs, severley limit their child's future
potential by preventing them from taking courses that will prepare them for
college and technology. Is that not a form of child abuse?
And should society allow this when their decision may result in a child ---
especially girls who's parents, as I noted, believe that 14 yrs old is time
to start looking for a husband, stand a large probability of ending up on
welfare adn we have to pay thier way (my state is one of hte leaders in the
nation in welfare mothers).
Call me elitist if you want, but my lifetime experience talking with
hundreds of parents --- friends, family, and parents of students --- makes
me velieve they have no idea what is truly a good education. Most are
content to let the "government" determine that. The rest have options ---
home schooling, private school, charter schools, magnet schools. And by far
most of these don't bother to do more than bitch.
Larry
What parents have is
superior local knowledge of their own children's interests and
abilities. We don't need to know much about mechanical engineering to
determine which car to buy. The market sorts things out better than
any political process.
| Quote: |
If a dispute over policy reflects a difference
over a mater of fact, where "What works?" is an empirical question, a
competitive market in education services or numerous small school
districts will provide more information than will a single State-wide
school district. A State-monopoly school system is like an experiment
with one treatment and no controls, a retarded wxperimental
design.
Wring. Facts are not necessary.
A lot of parents in my regoin send their kids to religious schools or home
school not based on facts and a rational decision but on emotion --- fear,
religious bias, even some parents who do not think that a girl needs more
than an 8th grade education before marrying (I've tutored them).
Maybe they're right. Maybe their children will be better off in a |
homeschool environment or in a parochial school than in one of the NEA/
AFT/AFSCME cartel's schools.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted ( Colleges of Education and Education fads).
Another thing they do is weed out students wwho want to "mother" children,
not teach. They aslo insist on competency in core subjects and specialized
areas.
Education majors rank among the bottom of entering college students, |
as measured by standatdized tests for college admission. Education
majors rank among the lowest applicants for graduate school, based on
GRE, LSAT, GMAT. The UH College of Education graduates Elem Ed majors
who cannot add fractions.
| Quote: |
In my experience the problems you mentioned above don't come from
teaching colleges but from researchers...
False dichotomy. Those "researchers" are College of Ed faculty or
Regional Education Lab Ed.Ds who didn't get a tenure-track academic
position.
Real dichotomy. At my alma mater, for ex, the researchers did not trach
teachers, but they taught other candidates for research degree. They
woulld'nt deign to talk to underlassmen or masters candidate teachers, but
only grad schoolers seeking research degrees. And certification curriculum
did not teach some of hteir "theories", but only those subjects approved
by
the state and local school boards.
Your college hired professors who did no research? That's unusual. The |
research is bogus, but they bill the taxpayers for it. That's how they
justify taking $80,000 per year for 6 hours per week and 32 weeks a
year of face-time with students.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
Coward.
Please try be civil.
From the idiot legislature we get standardized testing,...
What's your objection to standardized tests? Define "standard".
Tests given to all students used to rate an education
I mean generally. What's a "standard" and "and a "standardized |
test"?. You claimed to be a Math major. This shouldn't be too hard.
| Quote: |
Around here it was the PACT test, recently replaced because even our idiot
right wing legislature conceded ti showed nothing. But for a dozen years
cash strapped districts were forced to spend hundreds of thousands of
dollars of test prep books and teachers spent a hundred hours or more of
classroom time on the work books instead of curriculum.
What "force"? You describe a total waste of money. Commercial |
publishers will supply and grade standardized tests of Readng
vocabulary, Reading comprehension, and Math for about $20 per
pupil.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
My legislature now forbids local districts from using property taxes for
school funding, instead replacing ot with an increase in the sales tax.
The
intent was to eliminate the need, forced by a state supreme court
decision,
to use scarce state general funds to make up funding shortages in poor
districts. The decision put a minimum expeniture per chidl, and districts
unable to meet that through local funds were to be supplemented with state
funds. Unfortunaetly, the tax swap was not even and richer districts, like
mine, now export tax money to poorer districts while local spending goes
down.
Any tax subsidy scheme will have problems. Either districts will |
receive vastly different per pupil budgets ( if they receive
significant revenues from local sources), or wealthy districts will
subsidize poor districts (if the State imposes a uniform education-
dedicated revenue streal).
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
Dilapidated buildings and obsolete
textbooks are not due to insufficient taxpayer generosity; the
bureaucrats steal taxpayer money and poor kids' life chances. .
In South Carolina they are. Here every doallr spent is a line item on a
tax
bill.
A distric int he Greenville area refused to pass a bond issue ( a common
problem here) to repace a delapidated HS building where a roof collapsed 3
motnhs later. The school taught in shifts in the remaining part of the
building for he rest of hte year.. They still havenl't figured out what to
do in September.
That doesn't establish that taxpayers were insufficiently generous. |
According to NCES
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d06/tables/dt06_168.asp
in 2004 North Carolina spent $7,177 per pupil to operate its schools
and $1,193 on capital improvements. Suppose the average classroom
teacher has 20 students. You think you need $167,400 to cover your
salary, a space, books, utilities, lunch, and a gym membership for
each kid? .
| Quote: |
In the current system, real classroom teachers carry a swarm of out-of- |
classroom parasites on their backs.
| Quote: |
Our rightard legislature keeps cutting taxes forthe rich so it is
chronically short of moeny. WE passed an "education" lottery a feew years
ago to help fund schools. Our wonderful legisalture now uses income from
the
lottery to replace general funds for educaiotn, alowing another tax cut
for
hte rich. School funding has actually fallen, in real dollars, despite
gorign enrollment.
Look at the budget. Many other countries do a better job with less |
money.
| Quote: |
A bond issue here for new texts was shot down. Most students are not
allowed
to take books home anymore.
And it aint; just here. Accross the border iN Charlotte, NC, taxpayers
have
shot down the last two bond issues for schools, and now more than 15% of
students go to school in trailers.
The bonds were also to pay for taxts there, too. Soem schools use books
more
than 5 years old.
Many teachers in the region now photocopy tects becaue rapidly rising
enrollment has created shortages. On their own dime.
These problems are not due to insufficient taxpayer generosity. There |
is no amount of money so great that the parasites cannot waste it.
You're making my case.
| Quote: |
Legislatures hamstring teachers disciplining kids to the point that one
of
my 8th grade girls kicked a team member in the balls and all we could do
was send her to another school for 30 days to "cool off".
Ths is a consequence of the policy I criticize.
Bullhockey.
It is a direct result of NCLB, where schools are punished if attendance
falls below a certain level, for any reason REAL suspension counts against
attendance and could put a school in "failing" status.
You describe an inevitable consequence of compulsory attendance, |
exacerbated by the State-monopoly structure of the US Education
industry. Einstein opposed compulsory attendance at school. Gandhi
opposed compulsory attendance at school.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
The State cannot subsidize education without a definition of
"education", but
then students, parents, and real classroom teachers are bound by the
State's definition.
Again, do you want an 8th grade dropout farmer or laborer or mill worker
to
define education? We have hundreds of thousands of them
I don't see that organized violence (the State) adds anything to |
education system performance. Benjamin Franklin attended school for
two years. Hiram Maxim left school at 13 and apprenticed. Thomas
Edison was homeschooled and started work at 13. Richard Arkwright was
homeschooled. James Hargreaves had no more than an elementary school
education. Cyrus McCormick was homeschooled.
| Quote: |
Are you seriously suggesting that an 8th grader should define his/her
"education?
I wrote before, that's not my recommendation. I recommend Parent |
Performance Contracting
http://harriettubmanagenda.blogspot.com/2005/12/proposal.html
| Quote: |
I had 13 yr olds planning on dropping out on their 14th birthday (with
parental consent).
|
Edison did. Hiram Maxim did. Ben Franklin did, David Farragut joined
the Navy at 9, went to sea at 11, and commanded his first ship at 15.
Please read this article on artificially extended adolescence by Ted
Kolderie. http://www.educationevolving.org/pdf/Adolescence.pdf
| Quote: |
Uniform curricula and methods of instruction guarantee a poor fit
between
schools and many students.
But a cetain minimum standard education is required to function in this
society. That is why electives are available in well-funded high schools.
The State-monopoly system doesn't deliver this minimum.
Compulsory attendance means little unless some school is compelled to
accept students rejected everywhere else.
Some districts sanely accomplish this, using special schools for
discipline
problems ro special education students.
It is only when cheapskate taxpayers, like mine, refuse to fund these
schools that they must be "mainstremed"
We are, after all, ruled by a constitution that demands equal treatment.
Make up your mind!!! You were just complaining about a South Carolina |
Supreme Court ruling which invalidated school funding through local
property taxes for exactly this reason.
| Quote: |
Call these default option schools "the public schools". Nothing is gained
by
restricting parents' options for the use of the taxpayers K-12 education
subsidy
to these schools.
Why do you insist n using loaded words? Public education is not
"subsidized",
it is funded.
It's a subsidy by ordinary dictionary definition.
Discussion deleted...
Parents could give a shit about their kids education, to the point that
40% of 8th graders in my state do not graduate. They think that homework
is > > an unnecessary intrusion on play time or a child's employment and
refuse to
make them do assignments, adn that first period is a chance for their
kid
to make up
I agree with parents about homework. 6 hours in school for 180 days |
per year is enough. It does not take 12 years to teach a normal child
to read and compute. Most vocational training occurs more effectively
on the job.
| Quote: |
Political control of school exacerbates the problem of parent |
uninvolvement. Political control of school also ties the fortunes of
parents who do care to those who do not. Political control of
education policy turns insignificant differences over matters of fact,
over values, and over taste, which competetive markets in education
services would resolve without conflict (you eat what you want and
I'll eat what I want. You wear size 10 B shoes and I'll wear size 9D
shoes. Why do we all have to wear the same size shoes?) into high-
stakes, winner-take-all contests which must create unhappy losers.
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Please read this one page Marvin Minsky comment on school. |
http://www.rru.com/~meo/hs.minski.html
Please read E.G. West, "Education Vouchers in Principle and Practice:
A Survey", The World Bank Research Observer.
http://www.worldbank.org/research/journals/wbro/obsfeb97/educate.htm |
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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On Jun 30, 9:25 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Discussion deleted.
If a disagreement over policy reflects a difference of values, a State-
monopoly school system myst create unhappy losers, where a
competitive market in education services allows parents to select the
curriculum they prefer.
--- But, as I note later, 40% of hte parents in my state do not have HS
degree. And about an equal numbrer have no college experience. How do you
expect them to make a reasoned decision?
The problem is even larger with political control of school. How can they vote intelligently for Education policy?
Good question.
How can parents who did not graduate from HS, who have no ability to function at more than a minimal level in math, > reading, etc, who grew up in a era where children left school early to go to work in textile mills that are no longer in
this country amke an informed decision on a curriculum best suited to make their children excell in a society they
do not understand?
How can parents who have never used a computer, who view the internet as a means for predators to get to their
children, determine what level of technology education are needed. How can parents who have no idea what future job > markets will look like set up a curriculum for their children that will prepare them for that future.
On a moral plane, should we let parents lacking knowledge, or maybe even acting on their own biases and beliefs,
severley limit their child's future potential by preventing them from taking courses that will prepare them for
college and technology. Is that not a form of child abuse?
And should society allow this when their decision may result in a child ---
especially girls who's parents, as I noted, believe that 14 yrs old is time
to start looking for a husband, stand a large probability of ending up on
welfare adn we have to pay thier way (my state is one of hte leaders in the
nation in welfare mothers).
Call me elitist if you want, but my lifetime experience talking with
hundreds of parents --- friends, family, and parents of students --- makes
me velieve they have no idea what is truly a good education. Most are
content to let the "government" determine that. The rest have options ---
home schooling, private school, charter schools, magnet schools. And by far
most of these don't bother to do more than bitch.
Either (a) parents make education decisions individually or (b) they |
(as voters) make these decisions collectively (in a democracy) or (c)
some undemocratic process makes the determination. I rank these
choices 1(a)-2(b)-3(c). "c" relies on the intelligence and altruism of
bureaucrats, which strikes me as highly unlikely.
| Quote: |
Please read this one page Marvin Minsky comment on school.http:// |
www.rru.com/~meo/hs.minski.html
Please read E.G. West, "Education Vouchers in Principle and Practice:
A Survey", The World Bank Research Observer.http://www.worldbank.org/
research/journals/wbro/obsfeb97/educate.htm |
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