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Larry Hewitt
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 Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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<malcolmkirkpatrick@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1e1b3d0e-c154-44ea-aec9-c88485bc54f8@w5g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 28, 12:48 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 03:05:58 -0700 (PDT), malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com
wrote in alt.atheism:
On Jun 28, 2:16 am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:36:17 -0700 (PDT), malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com
wrote in alt.atheism:
On Jun 21, 2:13 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
Of course MK also ignores the evidence that private schools that are
given vouchers do no better than public schools, all other things
being
equal.
|
Let's have evidence FOR the assertion "that private schools that are
given vouchers do no better than the public schools, all other things
being equal".
---
A 2006 study for the US Dept of Ed National Center for Education Statistics
compared NEAP (National Education Assessment Program) standardized test
scores, comparing public, charter, and private school scores. Private
schools were broken down by secular and non-secualr, and even by religious
affiliation. Student bodies were normalized for economic background and
percentages of students classified as learning impaired.
Results were:
Public schools, on average, outscored all classifications of charter and
private schools in math and reading scores.
Traditional public schools outperformed public charter schools.
Lutheran affiliated private schools outperfoirmed Catholic affiliated
schools, which outperformed conservative Christian affiliated schools. All
were outperformed by public schools and only the Lutherans outperformed
secular private schools.
The difference in NEAP scores between public schools and conservative
Christian schools was 5 points. All other differences in scores were
statistically signufucant.
The authors concluded that the differences in raw scores between public
schools and all other categories is due to demographics, that is, the
abiliity of all other types of schools to select students for a predictable
ability to perform.
http://www.ncspe.org/readrel.php?set=pub&cat=126
| Quote: |
Two problems with this assertion:
1) Abundant evidence from international studies indicates otherwise,
So you claim. Why don't you point us to evidence?
Discussion deleted (Lassibile and Gomez).
Is correlation causation?
A. This is evidence. |
B. Here's Russell on Hume: "Hume's scepticism rests on his rejection
of the principle of induction. The principle of induction, as applied
to causation, says that, if A has been found very often accompanied or
followed by B, and no instance is known of A not being accompanied or
followed by B, then it is probable that on the next occasion on which
A is observed it will be accompanied or followed by B. If the
principle is to be adequate, a sufficient number of instances must
make the probability not far short of certainty. If this principle, or
any other form from which it can be deduced, is true, then the causal
inferences which Hume rejects are valid, not indeed as giving
certainty, but as giving a sufficient probability for practical
purposes. If this principle is not true, every attempt to arrive at
general scientific laws from particular observations is fallacious,
and Hume's scepticism is inescapable for an empiricist."
We learn the meaning of words by observing instances of their use. So,
basically, correlation or something like it is what we mean by
"cause".
---
Hume's scepticism is based solely on political and religious dogma.
It runs entirely counter to all scientific results.
| Quote: |
(Lassibile and Gomez): "This finding should convince countries to
reconsider > > policies that reduce the role of the private sector in
the field of education".
Why?
|
Voucher-subsidized markets in education services outperform State-
monopoly school systems. The Cold War is over. Your side lost.
---
False. As teh study above shows, ALL private schools significantly
underperform public schools.
Of course, there is significant variablility.
A more detailed study completed by the state of North Carolina last year
found that there were excellent schools of all types, and failing schools of
all typeds.
The difference is that public schools tend to fail because of the
demographics of hte student body. That is , large numbers of students who do
not speak English as a native language, poverty, high crime rates i n the
community, all are predictors of poor school performance.
Bur, since private schools cna sleect the student body and filter out these
students, failure in the private school system is due more to weaknesses in
the staff than in the students.
This is borne out by an examination of teacher requirements in each class of
school. Requirements for certification as a public school teacher demand
more education, experience, and proof of competency than many private
schools do. Some religious affiliated schools, for ex., do not even require
a bachelors degree to teach.
Larry
Discussion deleted (Joshua Angrist, "Randomized Trials and Quasi-
Experiments in Education Research" NBER Reporter, summer, 2003.http://
www.nber.org/reporter/summer03/angrist.html)
| Quote: |
He talks about an incentive program for children who finish high school.
|
The Columbia voucher lottery was a pre-college tuition voucher.
Discussion deleted...
| Quote: |
Were they tested before the lottery?
|
Basic Statistics. It was a random assignment and a large sample.
| Quote: |
A follow-up study in progress
shows that voucher winners also were more likely to apply to college.
On balance, our study provides some of the strongest evidence to date
for the possible benefits of demand-side financing of secondary
schooling, at least in a developing country setting."
Notice that his conclusion is not that private schools are better.
|
Students who won the voucher lottery score higher on standardized
tests and were more likely to apply for college. What meaning of
"better" excludes these results?
| Quote: |
http://www.libertyindia.org/pdfs/tooley_education.pdf
Hardly a social science journal or properly tested study. Are the
schools better per dollar? If so, why? or is the performance better
because the private schools don't have the same standards, can pay their
teachers less because of a religious motivation on the part of the
teacher (see Catholic parochial schools in the US as an example)? What
causes it?
|
You asked for evidence. Here it is.
You want the raw data? Or need he parade the students before you? You
get the results here. You asked for evidence. Here it is.
| Quote: |
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=11606(School Reform News
on Sweden's school voucher policy)
Details are lacking.
|
You asked for evidence. Here it is.
http://www.ccsindia.org/ccsindia/pdf/corinna-paper.pdf(summary of
| Quote: |
international evidence)
Interesting, but as you will note, the paper doesn't tell us if the
vouchers in the US actually improve education.
|
According to Harvard Economist Caroline Hoxby, they do.
| Quote: |
Thank you for the references. They may not be papers that were properly
written to meet the standards of a social science journal, but they are
good advocacy. They also don't address your actual claim.
|
Again, let's have evidence FOR the assertion "that private schools
that are given vouchers do no better than the public schools, all
other things being equal".
| Quote: |
Yes, many parents are choosing vouchers and there are places that school
results have gotten better. The articles seem to imply that there was more
money in total made available than had been available previously. Am I
correct
on that?
|
The Lassibile and Gomez paper indicates that voucher-subsidized
markets deliver higher performance at lower cost than State-monopoly
school systems. Herman Brutsaert's comparison of State (government,
generally) schools and parochial schools in Belgium (which subsidized
parent choice of schools at a level nearly equal to the per-pupil
budget of State schools) found higher mean scores and a lower
correlation between parent income and student test scores. State
schools exacerbate inequality. Political control of school harms most
the children of the least politically adept parents. |
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Larry Hewitt
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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<malcolmkirkpatrick@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:121c5e62-0ea2-4ff3-a988-47bcb9c3eb11@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 28, 12:48 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 03:05:58 -0700 (PDT), malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com
wrote in alt.atheism:
On Jun 28, 2:16 am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:36:17 -0700 (PDT), malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com
wrote in alt.atheism:
On Jun 21, 2:13 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
Of course MK also ignores the evidence that private schools that are
given vouchers do no better than public schools, all other things
being
equal.
Two problems with this assertion:
1) Abundant evidence from international studies indicates otherwise,
So you claim. Why don't you point us to evidence?
|
Discussion deleted...
| Quote: |
http://www.libertyindia.org/pdfs/tooley_education.pdf
Hardly a social science journal or properly tested study. Are the
schools better per dollar? If so, why? or is the performance better
because the private schools don't have the same standards, can pay their
teachers less because of a religious motivation on the part of the
teacher (see Catholic parochial schools in the US as an example)? What
causes it?
|
It's a summary of his research. As to "why" private schools are better
per dollar, what difference would any answer to that question make? If
compulsory attendance and a limited range of education options means
disruption in State (government, generally) schools and consqeuently a
requirement that State school teachers receive combat pay, that is an
argument for widening the range of education options available to
parents and students (and real classroom teachers) and/or reducing
compulsion. If teachers in Church-operated schools take part of their
compensation in "psychic" income (they're doung the Lord's work), so
much the better for taxpayers. Why is this a problem?
--- Because you are more likely to get those ho do not qualify for the
higher paying jobs than you are to get the high quality teacher who
sacrifices his/her family for ideology.
Look at the salaries of religious professional these days, including
missionaries.
Larry |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:36 am Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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On Jun 28, 7:23 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
(MK): "Let's have evidence FOR the assertion 'that private schools that are
given vouchers do no better than the public schools, all other things
being equal'.
--
A 2006 study for the US Dept of Ed National Center for Education Statistics
compared NEAP (National Education Assessment Program) standardized test
scores, comparing public, charter, and private school scores. Private
schools were broken down by secular and non-secualr, and even by religious
affiliation. Student bodies were normalized for economic background and
percentages of students classified as learning impaired.
Results were:
Public schools, on average, outscored all classifications of charter and
private schools in math and reading scores.
Traditional public schools outperformed public charter schools.
Lutheran affiliated private schools outperfoirmed Catholic affiliated
schools, which outperformed conservative Christian affiliated schools. All
were outperformed by public schools and only the Lutherans outperformed
secular private schools.
The difference in NEAP scores between public schools and conservative
Christian schools was 5 points. All other differences in scores were
statistically signufucant.
The authors concluded that the differences in raw scores between public
schools and all other categories is due to demographics, that is, the
abiliity of all other types of schools to select students for a predictable
ability to perform.
http://www.ncspe.org/readrel.php?set=pub&cat=126
Thanks for the link. We already discussed this study, though. |
Unadjusted test scores and graduation rates put independent and
parochial schools above the NEA/AFT/AFSSCME cartel's schools. Caroline
Hoxby and Andrew Coulson question the adjustments which the NCES
authors made to the data. Hoxby observes that the study compares
parochial schools and charter schools nationwide to the cartel's
schools nationwide. She contends that a district by district
comparison would find, say, inner-city Chicago parochial schools
outperforming the cartel's inner-city Chicago schools. Andrew Coulson
observes that the NCES authors used student participation in the free
and reduced priced lunch program as their surrogate for parent income.
Since some parochial schools do not participate in the subsidized
lunch program, they do not separarte their students into two
categories, participant and non-participant. The NCES would then count
that school's entire student population as
| Quote: |
Two problems with this assertion:
1) Abundant evidence from international studies indicates otherwise,
So you claim. Why don't you point us to evidence?
Discussion deleted (Lassibile and Gomez).
Is correlation causation?
A. This is evidence.
B. Here's Russell on Hume: "Hume's scepticism rests on his rejection
of the principle of induction. The principle of induction, as applied
to causation, says that, if A has been found very often accompanied or
followed by B, and no instance is known of A not being accompanied or
followed by B, then it is probable that on the next occasion on which
A is observed it will be accompanied or followed by B. If the
principle is to be adequate, a sufficient number of instances must
make the probability not far short of certainty. If this principle, or
any other form from which it can be deduced, is true, then the causal
inferences which Hume rejects are valid, not indeed as giving
certainty, but as giving a sufficient probability for practical
purposes. If this principle is not true, every attempt to arrive at
general scientific laws from particular observations is fallacious,
and Hume's scepticism is inescapable for an empiricist."
We learn the meaning of words by observing instances of their use. So,
basically, correlation or something like it is what we mean by
"cause".
Hume's scepticism is based solely on political and religious dogma.
Baloney. Hume was not religious.
It runs entirely counter to all scientific results.
Correlation or something like it is all we have to infer "cause". |
Ultimately, that is all we can mean by "cause".
| Quote: |
(Lassibile and Gomez): "This finding should convince countries to
reconsider > > policies that reduce the role of the private sector in
the field of education".
Why?
Voucher-subsidized markets in education services outperform State-
monopoly school systems. The Cold War is over. Your side lost.
---
False. As the study above shows, ALL private schools significantly
underperform public schools.
A) Unadjusted comparisons favor independent and parochial schools. |
B) See Hoxby and Coulson's rebuttal.
| Quote: |
Of course, there is significant variablility.
A more detailed study completed by the state of North Carolina last year
found that there were excellent schools of all types, and failing schools of
all typeds.
The difference is that public schools tend to fail because of the
demographics of the student body. That is, large numbers of students who do
not speak English as a native language...
Not a problem in Hong Kong, Korea, Belgium, the Netherlands, or |
Singapore, where English is everyone's second or third language. .
| Quote: |
or poverty, high crime rates in the community, all are predictors of poor school > performance.
Bur, since private schools can sleect the student body and filter out these
students, failure in the private school system is due more to weaknesses in
the staff than in the students.
This is borne out by an examination of teacher requirements in each class of
school. Requirements for certification as a public school teacher demand
more education, experience, and proof of competency than many private
schools do. Some religious affiliated schools, for ex., do not even require
a bachelors degree to teach.
College of Education courses add nothing to teacher effectiveness.
|
I recommend
Chubb and Moe
Politics, Markets, And America's Schools (Brookings, 1990)
http://www.brookings.edu/press/books/politicsmarketsandamericasschools.htm |
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Free Lunch
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
|
|
On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:23:10 -0700 (PDT), malcolmkirkpatrick@yahoo.com
wrote in alt.atheism:
| Quote: |
On Jun 28, 6:35 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:50:32 -0700 (PDT), malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com
wrote in alt.atheism:
On Jun 28, 12:48 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 03:05:58 -0700 (PDT), malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com
wrote in alt.atheism:
On Jun 28, 2:16 am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:36:17 -0700 (PDT), malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com
wrote in alt.atheism:
On Jun 21, 2:13 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
Of course MK also ignores the evidence that private schools that are
given vouchers do no better than public schools, all other things being
equal.
Let's have evidence FOR the assertion "that private schools that are
given vouchers do no better than the public schools, all other things
being equal".
Properly formed tests assume there is no difference. Assuming that one
is better than the other is an invalid method.
"Properly formed tests" of what?
|
Of whatever difference is being claimed.
| Quote: |
If we investigate the question of
whether policies which subsidize competitive markets in education
services outperform policies which restrict parents' options to a
single supplier, would it make sense to suppose --in advance-- any one
result of the three possibilities: 1) advantage, State monopoly, 2)
Advantage, competitive markets, 3) no difference?
|
But you always need to start with the null hypothesis, that there is no
difference.
....
| Quote: |
Basic Statistics. It was a random assignment and a large sample.
Sorry, but you cannot claim ex post that there really was a random
assignment normally distributed if you didn't test it.
The lottery was a random assignment. With the numbers involved, it's
highly unlikely the distribution of characteristics in the two
populations (lottery winners and lottery losers) would be different to
any level of statistical significance. Since there is always the
possibility of hidden variables, that's the point of large samples.
|
The article said that this was not known to be the case, that it was not
a properly controlled study.
| Quote: |
A follow-up study in progress
shows that voucher winners also were more likely to apply to college.
On balance, our study provides some of the strongest evidence to date
for the possible benefits of demand-side financing of secondary
schooling, at least in a developing country setting."
Notice that his conclusion is not that private schools are better.
Students who won the voucher lottery score higher on standardized
tests and were more likely to apply for college. What meaning of
"better" excludes these results?
What other inputs were involved? You need to deal with everything, not
just vaguely assume that you really have a proper test.
I had deleted this...
(FL): "By the way, I'm not an opponent of voucher, I am an opponent of
fake free-marketers who don't think they ever have to provide evidence to
back up their claims once they've claimed that it's a free market
solution. I am completely open to persuasion. You are doing your best
to drive me away from supporting vouchers."
This impossible condition: "you have to deal with everything"
indicates that the above doesn't represent the real FL position.
|
Where do you claim I am ignoring evidence?
| Quote: |
http://www.libertyindia.org/pdfs/tooley_education.pdf
Hardly a social science journal or properly tested study. Are the
schools better per dollar? If so, why? or is the performance better
because the private schools don't have the same standards, can pay their
teachers less because of a religious motivation on the part of the
teacher (see Catholic parochial schools in the US as an example)? What
causes it?
You asked for evidence. Here it is.
http://www.educationnext.org/20054/22.html(JamesTooley on
independent schools)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-1669110,00.html(James
Tooley on independent schools in Africa)
http://www.fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid=5563
(Tooley on development experts and private schools)
Tooley is a political opponent of public schools. I get that. Let's see
his actual research.
You want the raw data? Or need he parade the students before you? You
get the results here. You asked for evidence. Here it is.
So, you have no use for science journals.
So, "Free Lunch has no use for evidence. I cited several reputable
Social Science journals: the Journal of Political Economy,
|
Real journal, but I don't recall where you referenced it, nor do the
referees generally have knowledge of comparative education results.
| Quote: |
American Economic Review,
|
Real journal, but I don't recall where you referenced it, nor do the
referees generally have knowledge of comparative education results.
| Quote: |
Comparative Education,
|
The abstract for this article:
Abstract
Using a sample of countries chosen for their similar level of
development, this article shows the extent to which the organisation of
primary and secondary education differs from one country to another,
notably with respect to the way in which systems differentiate and
select pupils for specialised curricula. It also explores the question
of whether an education system that sorts pupils at a very early age is
more cost-effective than a system that does not sort pupils during
compulsory education. The stylised description of national education
systems is based on various sources of information. The data used in the
cost analysis come from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and
Development (OECD) and the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and
Cultural Organisation (UNESCO). Due to data limitations, the analysis of
system performance is based on student achievement only in mathematics
and science. The data are drawn from the Third International Mathematics
and Science Study (TIMSS) conducted in 1994-1995 by the International
Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement (IEA).
The conclusion that you drew from the article is peripheral at best.
| Quote: |
Rationality and Society,
|
I don't find anything about it. I don't recall where you referenced it,
nor is there any way to know whether the referees generally have
knowledge of comparative education results.
| Quote: |
The World Bank Research Observer, etc.
|
I don't recall where you referenced it, nor do the referees generally
have knowledge of comparative education results.
| Quote: |
Tooley is an academic.
|
No kidding, yet you referenced his non-academic papers.
| Quote: |
Before I'll
believe that Tooley misrepresents his results, I'll need contrary
evidence.
|
I didn't claim that. I note that you referred to his popular advocacy
papers, not his journal articles.
| Quote: |
Are you a creationist, too?
I wrote before: "I'm a devout materialist. I was raised in no church.
Russell, Quine, Dennett, Dawwin, Dawkins, all the way". Got any
argument other than inuendo and open ad hominem?
|
The rhetoric was inspired by your selective credulousness.
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
Again, let's have evidence FOR the assertion "that private schools
that are given vouchers do no better than the public schools, all
other things being equal".
You keep repeating that mantra. Do you also insist that no one has
proven that God doesn't exist? You must know that the test is always to
start with the assumption that there is no difference.
In which case, what's the argument FOR the application of organized
violence (the State) to force children into a State-monopoly school
system?
|
There is no state monopoly school system. You know that. There is a
tax-supported school system that allows all comers for no charge. No one
is required to go to that school system, but they are required to be
educated. In some places, substantial minorities, possibly majorities,
go to private schools.
Why do you think that religious schools should have the right to teach
their religions on the taxpayer dime?
| Quote: |
Discussion deleted...
Interesting, but as you will note, the paper doesn't tell us if the
vouchers in the US actually improve education.
According to Harvard Economist Caroline Hoxby, they do.
The studies are mixed. The quality of the studies is also a problem. The
Hoxby one has been strongly critiqued.
Hoxby has published numerous studies, so "one" is silly.
|
I made an assumption about which paper you were referring to. I was
familiar with her Milwaukee study and the followup studies that do not
show that the private/parochial schools are doing any better.
| Quote: |
"(H)as been
strongly critiqued" doesn't say much. So has Darwin. "Are you a
Creationist, too?" |
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Free Lunch
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:18:57 -0700 (PDT), malcolmkirkpatrick@yahoo.com
wrote in alt.atheism:
| Quote: |
On Jun 28, 7:32 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:121c5e62-0ea2-4ff3-a988-47bcb9c3eb11@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 28, 12:48 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
(provenance deleted)...
(Free Lunch): "Of course MK also ignores the evidence that private
schools that are given vouchers do no better than public schools, all
other things being equal."
(MK): "Two problems with this assertion:
1) Abundant evidence from international studies indicates otherwise,
(FL): "So you claim. Why don't you point us to evidence?"
Discussion deleted...
(MK): "http://www.libertyindia.org/pdfs/tooley_education.pdf"
(FL): "Hardly a social science journal or properly tested study. Are
the schools better per dollar? If so, why? or is the performance
better because the private schools don't have the same standards, can
pay their teachers less because of a religious motivation on the part
of the teacher (see Catholic parochial schools in the US as an
example)? What causes it?"
(MK): "It's a summary of his research. As to "why" private schools are better
per dollar, what difference would any answer to that question make? If
compulsory attendance and a limited range of education options means
disruption in State (government, generally) schools and consqeuently a
requirement that State school teachers receive combat pay, that is an
argument for widening the range of education options available to
parents and students (and real classroom teachers) and/or reducing
compulsion. If teachers in Church-operated schools take part of their
compensation in "psychic" income (they're doung the Lord's work), so
much the better for taxpayers. Why is this a problem?
Because you are more likely to get those who do not qualify for the
higher paying jobs than you are to get the high quality teacher who
sacrifices his/her family for ideology.
Teacher quality is a complicated issue. In the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's
schools (the "public" school system), higher salaries don't produce
better teachers than in the parochial schools. Money attracts crooks
as well as competent teachers. Tenure and seniority give salary
increases to those already on the job. Union contracts with uniform
pay scales typically require that districts cannot pay higher salaries
for teachers in shortage areas (Math, Physics, Chemistry, Electronics
Shop) than for teachers in oversupplied fields (Bioology, Secondary
Social Studies).
Back to my question: Why is it a problem if teachers in parochial
schools take party of their compensation in cash? We were comparing
"efficiency" of the cartel's schools and parochial schools, using
standardized test scores as "benefit" and $/pupil as "cost". We
measure "teacher quality" by student performance on standardized
tests. Unless someone can point to a measurable adverse impact of
lower teacher salaries in parochial schools than in the cartel's
schools, it's simply a fact, not a problem.
|
You may be able to attract a dozen people in a town to work for wages
that are half of what they are worth, but if you need to double the
number of teachers, you cannot rely on underpaying them to make the
program work.
If the difference comes to the price of the teacher, your project is a
failure.
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Larry Hewitt
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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<malcolmkirkpatrick@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fde8add6-0da1-4004-8a4f-b752b37f2530@g16g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 28, 7:32 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:121c5e62-0ea2-4ff3-a988-47bcb9c3eb11@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 28, 12:48 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
(provenance deleted)... |
(Free Lunch): "Of course MK also ignores the evidence that private
schools that are given vouchers do no better than public schools, all
other things being equal."
(MK): "Two problems with this assertion:
1) Abundant evidence from international studies indicates otherwise,
(FL): "So you claim. Why don't you point us to evidence?"
Discussion deleted...
(MK): "http://www.libertyindia.org/pdfs/tooley_education.pdf"
(FL): "Hardly a social science journal or properly tested study. Are
the schools better per dollar? If so, why? or is the performance
better because the private schools don't have the same standards, can
pay their teachers less because of a religious motivation on the part
of the teacher (see Catholic parochial schools in the US as an
example)? What causes it?"
| Quote: |
(MK): "It's a summary of his research. As to "why" private schools are
better
per dollar, what difference would any answer to that question make? If
compulsory attendance and a limited range of education options means
disruption in State (government, generally) schools and consqeuently a
requirement that State school teachers receive combat pay, that is an
argument for widening the range of education options available to
parents and students (and real classroom teachers) and/or reducing
compulsion. If teachers in Church-operated schools take part of their
compensation in "psychic" income (they're doung the Lord's work), so
much the better for taxpayers. Why is this a problem?
Because you are more likely to get those who do not qualify for the
higher paying jobs than you are to get the high quality teacher who
sacrifices his/her family for ideology.
Teacher quality is a complicated issue. In the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's |
schools (the "public" school system), higher salaries don't produce
better teachers than in the parochial schools.
--- Actually, it does. AS I said in another post, private school teacher
qualifications are less than those of public school teachers tot he point
that, for some religious private schools, a college education is not reuired
..
Money attracts crooks
as well as competent teachers.
--- Your looneytarian inanity is showing.
Public school terachers are well paid only when compared to private school
teachers.
Public school teachers are required to spend hundreds of dollars of their
own money for schools supplies, copies, books, field trips, etc.
There is nothing to steal.
Tenure and seniority give salary
increases to those already on the job.
-- Teachers do not deserve raises??
Union contracts with uniform
pay scales typically require that districts cannot pay higher salaries
for teachers in shortage areas (Math, Physics, Chemistry,
--- Union contracts have little to do with it, My district, for ex, does not
have a union contract yet has fixed salary levels based on years of service,
type of certification, and eduational level.
Electronics
Shop) than for teachers in oversupplied fields (Bioology, Secondary
Social Studies).
I jnoow of no district within several hundred miles of my town with an
oversupply of teachers in core subjects.
In fact, to attract teachers i those subjects state after state is adopting
alternative certiication programs to attract people with degrees but no
teacher training.
Back to my question: Why is it a problem if teachers in parochial
schools take party of their compensation in cash?
--- Avoids taxes? Leads to corruption? Hides tru costs from parents and
schools regulators (could be for, ex, the parent church).
We were comparing
"efficiency" of the cartel's schools and parochial schools, using
standardized test scores as "benefit" and $/pupil as "cost".
--- Which is looney and meaningless.
We
measure "teacher quality" by student performance on standardized
tests.
--- Only loonies who hve no idea what goes on inschools do this.
Study after study shows that a child's demographics has more influence on
performance than anything else.
Unless someone can point to a measurable adverse impact of
lower teacher salaries in parochial schools than in the cartel's
schools, it's simply a fact, not a problem.
--- I did.
A dtudy by teh US Dept of Ed found that average test scores on the
standardized NEAP test fell into this range.
Forst,, traditional public schools.
Then public charter schools.
Lutheran schools
Secular private schools
Catholic schols
Conservative Christian schools
The last 2 categories tend to ahve teacher who each for philosophical
reasons, often forgoing salary for ideology (Nuns, f. ex.) They are also the
highest percentage of teachers without college degrees.
| Quote: |
Look at the salaries of religious professional these days, including
missionaries.
|
I have no idea. Might be interesting if you can provide information,
but I doubt it's relevant to this discussion.
-- Loo it up yourself, you ar etheone claiming knowledge
Eric Hanushek on teacher quality
http://www.nctq.org/nctq/research/1112806467874.pdf
http://www.childrenofthecode.org/interviews/hanushek.htm
Teacher Credentials Don't Matter for Student Achievement
http://www.policyreview.org/APR01/holland.html
http://www.nber.org/digest/aug07/w12828.html
http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2005/06/22/41aera.h24 (teacher
training)...
Ah, yes, more conservative funded orgs masquerading as "nonpartisan".
What I can never understand is two things:
One, why do you want to screw teachers> Do they not deserve to make a decent
living?
And why do you think that leaving the future of your child to the lowest
bidder is a good thing?
Larry |
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Larry Hewitt
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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<malcolmkirkpatrick@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bdb05e40-77b6-465d-a1a6-7cba70c43a2e@r37g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 28, 7:23 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
(MK): "Let's have evidence FOR the assertion 'that private schools that
are
given vouchers do no better than the public schools, all other things
being equal'.
--
A 2006 study for the US Dept of Ed National Center for Education
Statistics
compared NEAP (National Education Assessment Program) standardized test
scores, comparing public, charter, and private school scores. Private
schools were broken down by secular and non-secualr, and even by religious
affiliation. Student bodies were normalized for economic background and
percentages of students classified as learning impaired.
Results were:
Public schools, on average, outscored all classifications of charter and
private schools in math and reading scores.
Traditional public schools outperformed public charter schools.
Lutheran affiliated private schools outperfoirmed Catholic affiliated
schools, which outperformed conservative Christian affiliated schools. All
were outperformed by public schools and only the Lutherans outperformed
secular private schools.
The difference in NEAP scores between public schools and conservative
Christian schools was 5 points. All other differences in scores were
statistically signufucant.
The authors concluded that the differences in raw scores between public
schools and all other categories is due to demographics, that is, the
abiliity of all other types of schools to select students for a
predictable
ability to perform.
http://www.ncspe.org/readrel.php?set=pub&cat=126
Thanks for the link. We already discussed this study, though. |
Unadjusted test scores and graduation rates put independent and
parochial schools above the NEA/AFT/AFSSCME cartel's schools.
--- Yep. and explained. Private schools filter students based on an
expectation qualifiactions leading to success in school, ir, cherry
picking. The hgihest performing hs in my district, for ex, is Westminster
Catawba Chrsitian, where students take an entrance exam, parents pay $12000
a year in tuition, and parental invlovlvement is mandatory. An "f" results
in dismissal, fighting, attendance problems, etc result in dismissal.
Public schools do not have this luxury.
Public schools take all students.
Caroline
Hoxby and Andrew Coulson question the adjustments which the NCES
authors made to the data. Hoxby observes that the study compares
parochial schools and charter schools nationwide to the cartel's
schools nationwide. She contends that a district by district
comparison would find, say, inner-city Chicago parochial schools
outperforming the cartel's inner-city Chicago schools. Andrew Coulson
observes that the NCES authors used student participation in the free
and reduced priced lunch program as their surrogate for parent income.
Since some parochial schools do not participate in the subsidized
lunch program, they do not separarte their students into two
categories, participant and non-participant. The NCES would then count
that school's entire student population as
Her complaints have no basis.
If , for examle, she thought that a comparison of Chicago schools would show
something , the data is public and she could run it herself.
Instead she whines.
I posted dhte results of a Norht Carolina study that made more detailed
comparisons with the same results.
Larry
| Quote: |
Two problems with this assertion:
1) Abundant evidence from international studies indicates otherwise,
So you claim. Why don't you point us to evidence?
Discussion deleted (Lassibile and Gomez).
Is correlation causation?
A. This is evidence.
B. Here's Russell on Hume: "Hume's scepticism rests on his rejection
of the principle of induction. The principle of induction, as applied
to causation, says that, if A has been found very often accompanied or
followed by B, and no instance is known of A not being accompanied or
followed by B, then it is probable that on the next occasion on which
A is observed it will be accompanied or followed by B. If the
principle is to be adequate, a sufficient number of instances must
make the probability not far short of certainty. If this principle, or
any other form from which it can be deduced, is true, then the causal
inferences which Hume rejects are valid, not indeed as giving
certainty, but as giving a sufficient probability for practical
purposes. If this principle is not true, every attempt to arrive at
general scientific laws from particular observations is fallacious,
and Hume's scepticism is inescapable for an empiricist."
We learn the meaning of words by observing instances of their use. So,
basically, correlation or something like it is what we mean by
"cause".
Hume's scepticism is based solely on political and religious dogma.
Baloney. Hume was not religious.
It runs entirely counter to all scientific results.
Correlation or something like it is all we have to infer "cause". |
Ultimately, that is all we can mean by "cause".
| Quote: |
(Lassibile and Gomez): "This finding should convince countries to
reconsider > > policies that reduce the role of the private sector in
the field of education".
Why?
Voucher-subsidized markets in education services outperform State-
monopoly school systems. The Cold War is over. Your side lost.
---
False. As the study above shows, ALL private schools significantly
underperform public schools.
A) Unadjusted comparisons favor independent and parochial schools. |
B) See Hoxby and Coulson's rebuttal.
| Quote: |
Of course, there is significant variablility.
A more detailed study completed by the state of North Carolina last year
found that there were excellent schools of all types, and failing schools
of
all typeds.
The difference is that public schools tend to fail because of the
demographics of the student body. That is, large numbers of students who
do
not speak English as a native language...
Not a problem in Hong Kong, Korea, Belgium, the Netherlands, or |
Singapore, where English is everyone's second or third language. .
| Quote: |
or poverty, high crime rates in the community, all are predictors of poor
school > performance.
Bur, since private schools can sleect the student body and filter out
these
students, failure in the private school system is due more to weaknesses
in
the staff than in the students.
This is borne out by an examination of teacher requirements in each class
of
school. Requirements for certification as a public school teacher demand
more education, experience, and proof of competency than many private
schools do. Some religious affiliated schools, for ex., do not even
require
a bachelors degree to teach.
College of Education courses add nothing to teacher effectiveness.
|
I recommend
Chubb and Moe
Politics, Markets, And America's Schools (Brookings, 1990)
http://www.brookings.edu/press/books/politicsmarketsandamericasschools.htm |
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Bob LeChevalier
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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"Larry Hewitt" <larryhewi@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
We were comparing
"efficiency" of the cartel's schools and parochial schools, using
standardized test scores as "benefit" and $/pupil as "cost".
--- Which is looney and meaningless.
|
Especially after trying to convince people that parochial teachers
take part of their salary in intangible benefits, to presume that
there is one number that summarizes all "benefits" in a cost/benefit
comparison is ridiculous. But he'll make any argument in order to
prove his assumptions.
| Quote: |
Unless someone can point to a measurable adverse impact of
lower teacher salaries in parochial schools than in the cartel's
schools, it's simply a fact, not a problem.
--- I did.
|
Unless someone can point to a measurable adverse impact of
lower test scores in some schools than in others, it's simply a fact,
not a problem.
| Quote: |
One, why do you want to screw teachers> Do they not deserve to make a decent
living?
|
He wants to screw the unions and the bureaucrats, and anyone who gets
in the way is merely collateral damage.
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier - artificial linguist; genealogist
lojbab@lojban.org Lojban language www.lojban.org |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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On Jun 29, 4:07 am, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
(MK): "Let's have evidence FOR the assertion 'that private schools that are
given vouchers do no better than the public schools, all other things
being equal'.
A 2006 study for the US Dept of Ed National Center for Education
Statistics compared NEAP (National Education Assessment Program) > > standardized test scores, comparing public, charter, and private school
scores. Private schools were broken down by secular and non-secualr, and
even by religious affiliation. Student bodies were normalized for economic
background and percentages of students classified as learning impaired.
Results were:
Public schools, on average, outscored all classifications of charter and
private schools in math and reading scores.
Traditional public schools outperformed public charter schools.
Lutheran affiliated private schools outperfoirmed Catholic affiliated
schools, which outperformed conservative Christian affiliated schools. All
were outperformed by public schools and only the Lutherans outperformed
secular private schools.
The difference in NEAP scores between public schools and conservative
Christian schools was 5 points. All other differences in scores were
statistically signufucant.
The authors concluded that the differences in raw scores between public
schools and all other categories is due to demographics, that is, the
abiliity of all other types of schools to select students for a
predictable ability to perform.
http://www.ncspe.org/readrel.php?set=pub&cat=126
Thanks for the link. We already discussed this study, though.
Unadjusted test scores and graduation rates put independent and
parochial schools above the NEA/AFT/AFSSCME cartel's schools.
--- Yep. and explained. Private schools filter students based on an
expectation qualifiactions leading to success in school, ir, cherry
picking. The hgihest performing hs in my district, for ex, is Westminster
Catawba Chrsitian, where students take an entrance exam, parents pay $12000
a year in tuition, and parental invlovlvement is mandatory. An "f" results
in dismissal, fighting, attendance problems, etc result in dismissal.
Public schools do not have this luxury.
That would be an explanation for the superior performance of |
independent and parochial schools, not a rebuttal to the point:
unadjusted scores put independent and parochial schools ahead.
| Quote: |
Public schools take all students.
The NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's schools discriminate on the basis of age, |
income (it's called "assignment by district"), and expected academic
performance (magnet schools).
| Quote: |
Caroline Hoxby and Andrew Coulson question the adjustments which the
NCES authors made to the data. Hoxby observes that the study compares
parochial schools and charter schools nationwide to the cartel's schools
nationwide. She contends that a district by district comparison would find,
say, inner-city Chicago parochial schools outperforming the cartel's inner-city > > Chicago schools. Andrew Coulson observes that the NCES authors used
student participation in the free and reduced priced lunch program as their
surrogate for parent income. Since some parochial schools do not participate > > in the subsidized lunch program, they do not separarte their students into two
categories, participant and non-participant. The NCES would then count
that school's entire student population as non-poor.
Her complaints have no basis. If , for examle, she thought that a comparison of > Chicago schools would show something , the data is public and she could run it > herself. Instead she whines.
I don't know that Hoxby hasn't conducted an empirical investigation of |
this point .If she hasn't, it hardly rebuts her point. The national
average performance of the cartel's schools includes schools in high-
performance States like North Dakota and Idaho. In these States, few
parochial schools operate. If parochial schools come close to the
national average, it follows that they significantly out-perform the
cartel's wretched inner-city schools.
Coulson's criticism remains unaddressed.
"One has only to to think of the sinister possibilities of the radio,
State-controlled education, and so forth, to realize that 'the truth
is great and will prevail' is a prayer rather than an axiom." --George
Orwell, Review of __Power; A New Social Analysis__ by Bertrand
Russell.
"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can
stand by itself." Thomas Jefferson.
Please read this one page Marvin Minsky comment on school.
http://www.rru.com/~meo/hs.minski.html
Please read this article on artificially extended adolescence by Ted
Kolderie. http://www.educationevolving.org/pdf/Adolescence.pdf
Please read E.G. West, "Education Vouchers in Principle and Practice:
A Survey", The World Bank Research Observer.
http://www.worldbank.org/research/journals/wbro/obsfeb97/educate.htm
Karl Bunday's site
http://learninfreedom.org/Nobel_hates_school.html
My recomendation: Parent Performance Contracting
http://harriettubmanagenda.blogspot.com/2005/12/proposal.html
This is what the cartel's shills defend
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11952459@N08/ |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Louisiana Will Face Lawsuit If New Law Brings Religion I |
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|
On Jun 29, 4:01 am, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
malcolmkirkpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:fde8add6-0da1-4004-8a4f-b752b37f2530@g16g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 28, 7:32 pm, "Larry Hewitt" <larryh...@comporium.net> wrote:
|
Discussion deleted...
| Quote: |
If teachers in Church-operated schools take part of their compensation in "psychic" income (they're doung the Lord's work), so
much the better for taxpayers. Why is this a problem?
Because you are more likely to get those who do not qualify for the
higher paying jobs than you are to get the high quality teacher who
sacrifices his/her family for ideology.
Teacher quality is a complicated issue. In the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's
schools (the "public" school system), higher salaries don't produce
better teachers than in the parochial schools.
Actually, it does. As I said in another post, private school teacher
qualifications are less than those of public school teachers to he point
that, for some religious private schools, a college education is not reuired
.
Teacher credentials are bogus. College of Education courses add |
nothing to teacher competence.
| Quote: |
Money attracts crooks as well as competent teachers.
Your looneytarian inanity is showing.
A. Please try be civil. |
B.. You contend that money doesn't attract crooks? I guess my bank
wasted a lot of money building that vault, then.
| Quote: |
Public school terachers are well paid only when compared to private school
teachers.
On a per hour or per day basis, the cartel's teachers receive |
compensation equal to college graduates in much more rigorous
fields.
| Quote: |
Public school teachers are required to spend hundreds of dollars of their
own money for schools supplies, copies, books, field trips, etc.
There is nothing to steal.
$500 billion per year in K-12 education subsidies. 6 hours per student- |
day x 180 hours per year x 44 million students.
| Quote: |
Tenure and seniority give salary increases to those already on the job.
Teachers do not deserve raises?
The most accurate measure of value of any good or service is what it |
trades for in a competitive market. Good teachers are underpaid.
Abusive teachers are overpaid with their irst dime. Negotiated uniform
pay schedules do not allow districts to consider differences in
teacher effectiveness or scarcity by subject area.
| Quote: |
Union contracts with uniform pay scales typically require that districts cannot pay higher salaries
for teachers in shortage areas (Math, Physics, Chemistry,
Union contracts have little to do with it, My district, for ex, does not
have a union contract yet has fixed salary levels based on years of service,
type of certification, and eduational level.
Curious. What State? Where is the contract written?
...Electronics Shop) than for teachers in oversupplied fields (Bioology, Secondary
Social Studies).
I now of no district within several hundred miles of my town with an oversupply of teachers in core subjects.
In fact, to attract teachers in those subjects state after state is adopting alternative certiication programs to attract people with degrees but no
teacher training.
Finally. Our legislature just shot down a proposal to allow the DOE to |
hire Teach For America teachers.
| Quote: |
Back to my question: Why is it a problem if teachers in parochial schools take party of their compensation in cash?
Avoids taxes?
That's absurd. We don't tax the enjoyment someone gets from his job or |
recreation.
| Quote: |
Leads to corruption?
It would be hard to beat the State-monopoly school system for |
corruption.
| Quote: |
The education industry is not a natural monopoly, and beyond a very |
low level there are no economies of scale at the delivery end of the
educaton industry as it currently operates. "Natural monopoly" and
"economies of scale" are two usual welfare-economic arguments for
State operation of an industry. Even where an industry qualifies as a
natural monoploy or exhibits significant economies of scale, the
argument for State operation is not decisive. In any case, the
education industry is not a natural monopoly and, beyond a very low
level, does not exhibit significant economies of scale as it currently
operates. Education only marginally qualifies as a "public good" as
economists use the term, and the "public goods" argument implies
subsidy and regulation, at most, not State operation of an industry.
Across countries and across industries, monopolies deliver wretched
goods and services at high cost, relative to competitive markets.
Subsidized goods are over-consumed. A State-subsidized monopoly is a
recipe for over-consumption of shoddy goods. It does not take twelve
years to teach a normal child to read and compute. The tax-subsidized
US K-12 school system originated in anti-Catholic bigotry and survives
on determined lobbying by the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel, through direct
political action and through front groups like Americans United for
the Separation of Church and State and People for the American Way,
and through paid shills who participate in various forums.
"Public education" has become a make-work program for dues-paying
members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel, a source of padded contracts for
politically-connected insiders, a source of campaign support for
compliant politicians, and a venue for State-worshiphul
indoctrination. If this is not so, why cannot any student take, at any
age, an exit exam (the GED will do) and apply the taxpayers' K-12
education subsidy toward post-secondary tuition at any VA-approved
post-secondary institution or toward a wage subsidy at a qualified
(say, has filed W-2 forms on at least three employees for at least the
previous four years) private-sector employer?
"The public" is not in school. Students in independent and parochial
schools are as much "the public" as are students in the NEA/AFT/AFSCME
cartel's schools (the "public schools"). We are all public citizens
and private individuals. Unions, even "public sector" unions, are
private 501-c(5) corporations. their assets are the property of their
members and their legal obligations are to dues-paying members and
agency fee payers. Sometimes unions, like other organizations, get
captured by insiders who bend the nstitution to their purposes. In no
case do "public sector" unions have any more obligation to "the
public" than do any other corporations.
Current policy sustains a State-monopoly system, which restricts all
parents options for the use of the taxpayers' K-12 education subsidy
to schools operated by dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME
cartel. Abundant evidence indicates that taxpayers would get more of
what we want (reading vocabulary, reading comprehension, mathematical
and scientific literacy and vocational preparation) and less of what
we don't want (drug abuse, vandalism, violence) from policies which
give to individual parents the power to determine which institution
(if any) shall receive the taxpayers' K-12 education subsidy.
Legislators fail their obligation to citizens when they vote to
sustain the current system.
| Quote: |
Hides true costs from parents and schools regulators (could be for, ex, the parent church).
"Hides the true cost" is what compulsory attendance statutes, tax |
subsidy, and the cartel's monopoly position do.
| Quote: |
We were comparing "efficiency" of the cartel's schools and parochial schools, using
standardized test scores as "benefit" and $/pupil as "cost".
--- Which is looney and meaningless.
What measure of "efficiency" do you suggest? "Efficiency" requires -- |
some-- measure of inputs and outputs.
| Quote: |
We measure "teacher quality" by student performance on standardized
tests.
Only loonies who hve no idea what goes on in schools do this.
It's usual, among academic research into teacher quality. What measure |
do you suggest.
| Quote: |
Study after study shows that a child's demographics has more influence on
performance than anything else.
Maybe so, but... |
a) this is an argument FOR parent control and
b) it does not explain away statistically significant differences in
aggregate student performance related to institutional characteristics
such as age of compulsory attendance (later is better), district size
(smaller is better), and teacher credential requirements (College of
Education coursework should count AGAINST applicants).
those stones. The State pays your salary. That makes you a socialist
shill, by your argument.
| Quote: |
What I can never understand is two things:
One, why do you want to screw teachers?
Have you stopped beating your wife? I was a teacher for ten years in |
the Hawaii DOE. I have friends in the system. Students, parents, real
classroom teachers, and taxpayers would benefit from policies which
give to individual parents the power to determine for their own
children which institution, if any, shall receive the taxpayers' K-12
education subsidy.
| Quote: |
Do they not deserve to make a decent living?
People "deserve" whatever compensation they receive in an uncoerced |
market.
| Quote: |
And why do you think that leaving the future of your child to the lowest
bidder is a good thing?
A. Where do you find that implication in what I wrote? I recommend |
Parent Performance Contracting.
http://harriettubmanagenda.blogspot.com/2005/12/proposal.html
B. Why do I prefer markets to command economies?
1) Markets out-perform State monopoly enterprises, generally.
Monopolies deliver wretched | | |
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